Putting it all together

[oz4lines]

Thanks again Julie,
We had a rough start with the clicker training.
Turns out Ca$h is a bit afraid of the noise(he's also afraid of snapping your fingers) so I've been taking it slow till he gets used to it. I keep the clicker in my pocket to muffle the sound.
He's got the concept of click treat, click treat,(yeah I'm trying it with food) but hasn't quite figured out that I want him to "Fix" his leg. Still working paitiently and with very short sessions on that.
I've incorporated the clicker when he moves properly and I'm pretty sure he understands when I want him to slow down a bit.
We're making a little progress all around, but still having trouble getting him to self stack. He still just gets overexcited for the treat . He will move the leg in question, but doesn't seam focused enough to put it where it belongs. It gets confusing for us both. Should he be rewarded for moving the leg that needs moving reguardless of where it lands or only rewarded for putting it where it belongs? He is sorta half right.
Jill

[JulieM]

If the clicker bothers him, you could try a retractable pen or a baby food jar lid (or some other lid with the "pop-up" in the middle). These are usually softer sounds than the clicker.

You might want to sit down and write out a training plan - it will help you set criteria and decide when to move up or down or stay the same. (Generally once the behavior is 80% fluent, you move up.)

What exactly are you doing? Are you luring or placing him into a semi-stack, and then wanting him to move his back foot into the proper spot? If that's the case, I'd start small - click/treat for moving his foot - once he's consistenly (80% of the time) moving the foot, only click when it is within <<some area>> of where you want it. When that's 80%, decrease the area until you're getting the foot where you want it. Then (and this may be harder) work on him putting the foot in the right spot to begin with.

The way I did it (just for comparison, you have to do what works for you) was to keep a clicker and treats handy, and without specifically working on a training session, I would click and treat whenever her back feet were in a good position - just as she was standing around. That only worked a few times, of course, because then she wouldn't go away and stand somewhere else So then I worked on her standing in front of me, getting the back feet correct. Not *precise*, but within a paw's width of where they were supposed to be. Then I worked on the precision, only clicking precise placement. Once she was good with that, I focused on the front feet - just moved around, had her stand in front of me, and when her front feet were good click/treat. Then more precise - again within a paw's width. Then I worked on precision again. Somewhere along the way I built in "hints" - extending my right leg toward her to have her re-set her left rear leg and vice-versa. For ears forward and up on toes I did bait a little at first (this was the first time I actually used food as a lure instead of just a reward), which actually helped to develop my hand signal anyway. Now, a forefinger held up is her cue to stack, and I extend my arm down and slightly behind me for ears forward/up on toes.

If he's going nuts over the treats, keep doing the Doggie Zen, and try not having the treats on your body when you train. Have them in an out-of-reach bowl nearby, so that you can still treat right after you click. Or try a lower-level treat - but that might be less motivating/reward, too.

[oz4lines]

He's getting the (rear) legs close to where I need them, but not exact. The food is reward only and not a lure(exept for bringing him over his chest). I will lean into him with my right leg and say "fix rear". He knows to move that leg and so on. I use my shoulders to move fronts, which he also understands. Even with no food in sight he is eager to "fix" and does so very quickly that its exaggerated, as if without actually thinking where it goes, only that I want him to move that leg.
When I try to hand stack him he is busy trying to sniff my hand or the air looking for the treat. He is not trying to attack me for it, just wants to check if I have anything.

He does not fidget at all when we "put it all together" and do it as a routine like at a show. He does not focus as well(above mentioned problems) when we are working on just one issue over and over such as self foot placement.

Jill

[alidansma]

I haven't tried this yet, so if my ideas are dumb....then ignore them.
But I was thinking what if you put something on the floor - not coffee can or blocks for them to fall off, but like pieces of constrction paper taped down or some fabric...maybe I can make one for Ginger and use her as a guinea pig..
I don't know how sensitive their feet are, but maybe a piece of fabric with felt circles glued where you want their feet to go - they could kind of "feel" with their feet where to put them at themselves and attach a command to it, and after doing it a lot - then their muscles would "remember" where to go. You could make the cirles smaller and smaller till they were gone - or use velcro and remove them one by one.

Do they already make something like this? If someone reading this makes a million dollars off this idea can I have some??

[JulieM]

LOL! This would be a form of target training, and is a good idea. I'm not sure if anyone has thought to teach targeting on back feet, but they do teach it for front feet. I'd suggest making a mat with spots for all four feet - something portable, so he doesn't think it his feet only have to be in *this* spot when he's in *that* room.

Otherwise, just break it down into small steps. If he knows to move his foot, then don't click when he moves it too far. Only click when he's got it right (or within your criteria). I wouldn't use cues yet, since he doesn't know what they really mean ("fix rear" to him means "move your rear leg," not "put your rear leg in this particular spot").

On the hand stacking, first work on getting him to stand still - regardless of where his feet are - then move to putting him into the right stance. Let him see that you don't have any food before you start, and after you click/treat show him again that you don't have any food.

Baby steps are the key. Break the behavior down into the smallest steps you can think of (stand still - stand still while I touch your collar - stand still while I hold your collar - stand still while I hold your collar and touch your front leg - stand still while I hold your collar and move your front leg - stand still while I hold your collar, move your front leg, then touch your other front leg - etc. etc. etc.) It may seem like it will take forever to do it this way, but the smaller the steps are the easier it will be for him to figure out what you want him to do. You will still get to the end point (stand still while I hold your collar, set all four feet, raise your tail and 'pull' you up on your toes), but it will probably be faster and less frustrating to do it tiny bits at a time.

[oz4lines]

What a great idea, thanks.
I guess that's where I was heading by asking if the "Happy Legs" would help, although I can't picture him willingly fixing a foot while on them. (my Dad is building me a set by the way).
I figure they can help me in hand stacking him and holding still. He's sooo inquisitive and doesn't believe me when I show him my hands are empty, which is why I really don't want to use a food reward. Not to drill a fear into him, but to reinforce this is where your legs go- short and simple.
It's so strange that he can do everything I want when we do it as a routine- one shot to get it right. But as soon as I try to focus on just leg placement for more than 2 or 3 times, he gets so antsy.
I just hate to work him too hard. He LOVES to show and I don't want to ruin that.
I'll try the mat idea tonight and take it with me, we're
heading off for a big(for me) show tomorrow..

Thanks again.
Jill