Question for the conformation people

[Alex C.]

I have been becoming increasingly involved in the "working dog" world and have talked to many people who frown on conformation dogs/people. They say US conformation is the reason so many breeds cannot fullfill their purpose? I'm too new & inexperienced to agree with working dog or conformation people. I don't know many conformation people, so I wanted to get "the other side of the story". I have heard conformation is a big beauty pageant & looks are primary & physical health secondary, but nothing is strived for as far as mental health & working ability. I know many breeds' purposes have changed from 100 yrs ago til today, but what about the dogs who are herders, retrievers, guard dogs, police dogs, etc? I have heard that many working breeds like the Boxer are becoming harder and harder to find, who can actually do work. Again, I'm not on either side. I'd just like to learn more, but so far, what I hear from the working dog clubs makes sense to me. What do you think?

[GoCougs]

Is it a beauty pageant? Sure, I think anyone involved in this sport would agree with that. However, if you look deeper, as it appears your "working dog" comrades don't, there is so much more to it. What is important to understand about conformation, is not just the beauty pageant aspect of it, but the consideration we also take in structure and health.

I think the one thing that these folks do not understand is that we consider things other than just how cute a dog is. Structure, temperament and movement are all factors in a dog's conformation. What is important to take away from that is, form affects function. For a dog to perform the tasks it was developed to do, it has to have good form.

Lastly, the health aspect. NO one does more for their individual breed to eliminate life limiting/shortening diseases and ailments than conformation folks. Conformation breed clubs raise tens of thousands of dollars a year for health research. Why? Simple, because our stated goal is always "betterment of the breed". Any good breeder should strive to produce boxers who looks and act like a boxer, while trying to eliminate the negatives.

Can working dog people say the same? Or do they simply just breed to create specimens who can perform a desired job? If it's the later, that may be why we are where we are today, working desperately to eliminate defective hearts and hip, and the killer of all killers, cancer. All because dogs were bred to perform a job, and no consideration was given to health or conformation.

[Alex C.]

Thanks for the reply. It seems to me both groups really care about the betterment of the breed, it's just different views. I'm glad you brought up the "form affects function" term. I have heard/read that in many working dog groups, only they say "form FOLLOWS function".

When you say a dog is bred for temperament, what do you mean? Working dog breeders say they breed for working ability meaning, their dogs can perform the work such as retrieve game, herd cattle, be a reliable protection dog, etc.

From all the working dog sites I've seen breeders as well as training & discussion sites. I am very impressed with how seriously they take the breeding of working dogs. Not only do they health test, but they must have working titles (whatever corresponds to the breed), measurements of the dog & flaws in it's movement (like conformation). If a dog has bad hips or heart, etc, they do not breed it.

Like I said, I am still learning & thanks for explaining conformation. It seems to me though, that unless the dog can be serve it's function as hunting dog, herder, pointer, guard dog, etc as well as companion, what good is "temperament" in the show ring?

[Draymia]

Great post GoCougs.

One other thing to keep in mind is the time involved in each sport. I am mostly involved in the conformation side of the sport, but do a little obedience and in the past I have actually protection trained my dogs. These dogs did so great and were so impressive in their protection work, that folks with the German Shepherds and Rottweilers even commented on the working ability. These dogs were show champions and are behind most of my current dogs.

So, there is not reason many of the conformation dogs cannot do the same work as the "working boxer", but there is only so much time and the interests are different.

[SILLY6PAK]

My breeder let me take Abby and Mia even though she only sends the few pups she has to show homes. Both dogs have multiple titles in obedience, agility and Mia is working in Rally and Abby is a certified service dog. I think if the breeder is truely breeding for the betterment then the dog will do well in any avenue, not just conformation.

[GoCougs]

Originally Posted by Alex C.

When you say a dog is bred for temperament, what do you mean?

Temperament means the dog is confident, friendly, fearless, happy and well mannered. Bad temperaments are overly aggressive, shy, afraid of strangers or sensitive. The later certainly don't make good working dogs.

Originally Posted by Alex C.

It seems to me though, that unless the dog can be serve it's function as hunting dog, herder, pointer, guard dog, etc as well as companion, what good is "temperament" in the show ring?

Temperament is more than just what happens in the show ring. What good is a working dog with a bad attitude?

I think in the hustle and bustle of dog sports, one must never lose sight that the most important function a dog should serve is as a companion first, and how we show off or spend time on extracurricular activities second.

[ehayes21]

I have heard conformation is a big beauty pageant & looks are primary & physical health secondary, but nothing is strived for as far as mental health & working ability. I know many breeds' purposes have changed from 100 yrs ago til today, but what about the dogs who are herders, retrievers, guard dogs, police dogs, etc?

This is a subject that makes me twitch a little. I am certainly not an expert on either conformation or working dogs, but I have paid attention to both and have made some pretty upsetting realizations. So take this for what it's worth.
I think GoCougs hit the nail on the head when he said form affects function - Unfortunately, some breeders don't produce with this in mind.
I haven't seen this so much in boxers as I have in some of the other working breeds, but I think the "beauty" mentality is still out there for some of the conformation folks. For example, take an actual "working" GSD and match them up to their conformation counterpart - there is VAST difference in conformation between the two. In fact, I find it pretty sad what some breeders have done to the show line GSD - most of them are walking with their knees practically touching the ground. How long do you think that poor dogs hips and elbows are going to last? Most working bred GSD's are absent of that huge slant, or it’s to a slighter degree, but they can actually work with those legs and hips! You'll find an even bigger difference in some of the working bred and show bred Labs, Border Collies, Goldens...
On the flip side, while some conformation folks have made a mess out of some breeds (like the GSD), some of the working people haven't done their dogs any favors either. Most working Border Collie breeders don't give a hoot about whether the dog is structurally sound or not. Look at the BC's that in no way meet the standard and have lost all breed type. Look at some of the working bred Labs that are hyperactive and high strung, who break down in the field.
The fact is, extremes in on both sides are bad. There are working labs that nobody can live with because they are so hyper that they live in kennels their entire life. Then show labs that can't swim to save their lives because they are so fat. None of this is good.
I applaud breeders who breed with the "total package" in mind - in fact, I want a dog that I can throw in the Show ring AND the Schutzhund ring all in the same day. I think it's disappointing that some breeder brag they are bettering the breed, yet pick and choose which part of the standard they want to follow.
Anywho...just my two cents.

[Alex C.]

Thank you ehayes21, you hit it on the nail as well. I actually tried to edit my post to add the GSD example, but ran out of time. Anyways, I THOUGHT the "showline GSD" is what a GSD should look like. Man was I wrong! I joined a Schutzhund club a few mos ago and began to see the differences and man was I impressed! These dogs are not only obedient, secure and extremely intelligent, but they are gorgeous dogs and are healthy. We have an 11 yr old Dutch Shepherd who still does a SchHIII routine and has no problem with the jump & A-Frame! The whole breed being split into 2, "showline vs working" is what peaked my interest about conformation and sport breeders in the Boxer.

I am the only person in the club w/a Boxer and she does well with obedience & fair with tracking, but I can see she does not have the nerves for protection, and that's pefectly OK with me. She is a great pet dog. We have a lady in our club who does conformation & sport with her Dobes and she says hands down she will always prefer to enter her dogs in sport competitions vs. conformation. BUT, she does say a happy medium is the right way to breed and I agree. From what I have seen in the Boxer, I wish more breeders would give sport/working competitions a shot vs. just conformation. There really aren't many working Boxers at all in the US and we need more. I am a member of a organization promoting the working Boxer and we need all the help we can get.

[JulieM]

A bit late to this, I've been unable to get to the board for a long time!

she does well with obedience & fair with tracking, but I can see she does not have the nerves for protection, and that's pefectly OK with me.

And that's perfectly OK with the Boxer standard, too. Despite what some might feel, the Boxer is *not* a 'protection' breed. That they have an innate ability to detect and appropriately respond to a threat, and that many of them excel at a wide range of activities, including the bitework aspect of Schutzhund, is a credit to their reputation as the premiere 'all-around' dog - but first and foremost, the breed was developed to hunt and hold large game, and to assist butchers and cattle dealers with their charges.

I know many "pure show line" Boxers who perform quite well in obedience, agility, tracking, search and rescue, service dog work, therapy dog work, herding, Schutzhund, etc. - it really does, as Cheryl said, depend on where the owner wants to spend their time (though I do think that in general, the Boxers bred specifically for "work-sport" do not fare as well in 'show' events as those bred for "show" do in 'work-sport' events). There is some thought that the high-drive work-sport temperament is not entirely correct for the breed (kind of the opposite end of the overly-friendly temperament which is also not entirely correct for the breed), and it certainly is not always easy to live with for JQP.

There does not, however, seem to be nearly the disconnect between 'disciplines' in Boxers are there is in some other breeds, and for the most part there is no reason at all that a well-bred show Boxer can't excel in whatever the owner is interested in.