White boxers - what's wrong?

[gmacleod]

The FCI may not make white a disqualification - but it states clearly that the only acceptable coat colours are fawn or brindle. White markings are allowed - NOT encouraged. And anything over the maximum amount of white allowed (1/3 of the body) is a fault that shall be punished in exact proportion to its degree. Under that regime, it would be impossible for a dog that was white, mostly white, or even significantly white, ever to be legitimately placed in a show.

You might also note that the incidence of white markings on boxers in the part of the world setting that breed standard (ie. Germany) is significantly lower than in North America.

Originally Posted by Boxerowner2

If someone wants to show their dog for fun I really dont see why they shouldnt.

That is why things like agility, rally, obedience, tracking, flyball and any number of other dog events were invented. Why anyone wants to enter a contest that has the sole purpose of selecting animals for breeding, with an animal that cannot or cannot responsibly be used for breeding, is the mystery. That sort of thing would just turn showing into some sort of mindless beauty contest.

[sjdl]

Everybody keeps on saying that white boxers are more likely to be this and that but i have seen more boxers in my vets office that are "akc" champ studded that have cancer-HUGE tumors that require multiple surgeries and treatments, so far out of the dozens and dozens of people i have met that have white boxers i have only seen one with cancer and it was a small tumor in his mouth. The akc boxers i mentioned above are fawns and brindles what are the overall chance that a colored boxer will have some form of cancer? Why is this anyless more serious than totally white boxers.

[gmacleod]

Who said it's not relevant? All genetic diseases are relevant and no animal that carries a significant defect that may be passed on and affect the quality or length of life of offspring can responsibly be bred. And no responsible breeder ever breeds a dog without first screening for those conditions that can be prescreened. That includes dogs with heart conditions, it includes dogs with hip dysplasia, thyroid issues, those cancers that are believed to have a genetic inheritance, allergies... the list goes on. And it includes dogs who will produce offspring with diluted pigment and a high risk of associated deafness. That means whites, if you didn't realise it, irrespective of whether the offspring are coloured.

The genetic reasons why unpigmented dogs cannot responsibly be used for breeding are well documented. That's by mammilian geneticists - not someone who's seen a few dogs in a vets office. They're already explained in this thread (and have nothing to do with cancer).

sjdl: You have been warned already about the promotion of irresponsible breeding. One more and I'm removing you from the site.

[sjdl]

Did I every mention BREEDING? The answer is NO. I have only mentioned showing. And by the way I never said cancer wasn't relevant, I am saying if you were told you could no longer show your fawn boxer because the color had too many instances of cancer and you dog was healthy how would you feel? I am not breeding my dog my children are showing them. Showing a dog is for pride and never should be used to sell anything, I have heard of people seeing acertain breed win a certain event and go right out and buy that kind of dog, not because they like it-but because it is in style or because it WON. I don't want to see the Boxer breed exploited like that. In fact I don't want any breed done like that. There are responsable breeders and owners out there and there are breeders who don't give a rats about anything just the money that their AKC, CKC, (whatever registry group they use) can make for them. Please understand that I have only bred MY BRINDLE and MY FAWN dogs once in 4 years, both dogs were cleared of having any genetic problems and guess what my dogs were murdered by a person I denied the ability to adopt a puppy, because he had a conviction of animal cruelty in my county. How many breeders do you know pay to find out if there buyers have any kind and I mean any kind of criminal record. I don't care if you littered you are not responsable enough to care for one of my babies.

[sjdl]

In response to the 86 pups, that was over 5 years and the dogs were both brindle.

[sjdl]

Sorry forgot to mention that the dogs are not owned by myself or by my vet and the dogs were not just health checked but were found to be geneticlly clear of problems. Could you please add this to my last post.

[gmacleod]

Originally Posted by sjdl

I have only mentioned showing.

And seem to be incapable of understanding that there is only one purpose to showing - and that is selection of breeding stock.

But you're determined to turn it into some sort of mindless beauty contest? How sad.

I am saying if you were told you could no longer show your fawn boxer because the color had too many instances of cancer and you dog was healthy how would you feel?

Absolutely fine. Glad to know about it even. If it was a guaranteed fact (as it is with whites) that my dog, although not suffering himself WOULD produce affected offspring and - worse- increase the incidence of such a serious problem throughout the entire breed, I would cease to enter him in any form of breeding selection contest. I'd also neuter him - immediately. But then, I'm not trying to bastardise the show ring into an opportunity to "prove" that I've got a pretty dog If my dog isn't fit to be bred, he has no business being there.

In response to the 86 pups, that was over 5 years and the dogs were both brindle.

You fail to understand (yet) again. It isn't colour that is at issue there - it is turning any animal into that sort of puppy production line. That's outright abuse, and as Julie said above - that poor bitch. You've got a pretty warped concept of "exploitation" if you're going to brag about that sort of practice. And at the same time label those who use the show ring for the reason it exists, proving that their dogs are good enough representatives of the breed to be considered as breeding stock, as "exploiting" their dogs? LOL - what's the weather like on your planet?

[ZOE*BOXER]

You fail to understand (yet) again. It isn't colour that is at issue there - it is turning any animal into that sort of puppy production line. That's outright abuse, and as Julie said above - that poor bitch. You've got a pretty warped concept of "exploitation" if you're going to brag about that sort of practice.

I agree wholeheartedly, regardlee of what color the dog is. I cannot get over how many treat their dogs as an enterprise. Do they even ask themselves what will happen to the pups? How many pups will they have, what will happen to those pups? So on and so forth, you get the picture. Because of people carelessly breeding for money, not only do we have the health and genetic problems, we also have way too many dogs in need of a home, sitting in shelters and rescues just waiting for a home, only to get put to sleep. I so wish it was harder to breed and animal than it is.

[Boxerowner2]

Not all Champions should be bred!

At this time I am one of those ppl that happens to enjoy showing for fun not for the all mighty title (yes that would be a plus). I'm not into Agility, rally, etc...at this time. I pick up my new pup this up coming weekend this pup will be my show prospect for fun and if we choose to breed him after his health testing, fine but that is not why I want to show. Sadly I have been told by many "well known" show/breeders that regardless if he turns out or finishes his Championship that I NEED to breed him because of his pedigree. Its not about beauty contest to me its all about having fun with my pets. IMO thats what it should be about. This is all just my opinion

Back to Whites!
Whites are not albino they don't come with all these health problems that ppl like to spread around. There is NO scientific evidence on this issues. Yes they have a little higher chance of being deaf than any colored boxer. If anyone wants to participate in a scientific study that is trying to get off the ground let me know. Just Being deaf has to do with the white coat not some strange genetic defect just like most of the white or predominantly white dogs you see like the bull terrier, Dalmatian, Great Pyrenees, etc....

[gmacleod]

Originally Posted by Boxerowner2

Back to Whites!
Whites are not albino they don't come with all these health problems that ppl like to spread around. There is NO scientific evidence on this issues. Yes they have a little higher chance of being deaf than any colored boxer.

Perhaps you should read a little more carefully also The genetic condition under discussion - and the thing that permanently excludes white boxers from the breeding, and hence showing, pool - is deafness. And there is AMPLE scientific evidence on that one.

Btw: It isn't just a "little" higher chance of being deaf. Due to lack of pigment, one in five white boxers is bilaterally deaf. That's versus about 1.5% of coloured boxers. Very likely, the figures for both groups would be double if we all had our dogs BAER tested for unilateral deafness.

Just to put that into a little bit of perspective for you - the incidence of deafness in whites is over 130 times higher than in dogs with normal pigment. Start breeding those animals, and you will both dilute pigment and increase the incidence of genetic deafness throughout the entire breed.

You might also like to note that the gene responsible for white coat colour in the boxer is precisely the same one that produces white coat colour in the Dalmation. You do not have to guess what would happen to boxers if whites were introduced to the breeding pool - there's a prior example out there for all the world to see.

Nope, sorry, but there is absolutely no excuse for deliberately breeding a genetic problem like that into a dog breed.

[Boxerowner2]

Please do you have the link to this "scientific" evidence? Because of course you have evidence not just bias info from rescue groups.

BTW whites don't lack pigment only albinos do. Whites may lack the pigment cells in the inner ear and that is what makes them deaf.

[Boxerowner2]

I also guess its OK to breed 2 flashy together? When you have a very high chance of producing an entire litter of whites. Breeding a white with a genetic plain will only produce the very sought after flashy pup and no whites bit more research going into this type of breeding which I doubt most of these ppl careless to do.

I have had chats with many show/breeder most hope to have the whites brought back in. Its also being said that whites have less issues, and that they might help the over all health, and longevity of the breed.