More Questions (I'm so confused!!)

[Boxer_21]

Now that I'm really serious about switching Riley over to BARF, the reality is setting in. With all of the research that I've done, I'm still confused and feeling sort of insecure about some things. I know that you guys can help me out, which in turn will be beneficial for Riley. Now here are my questions.

- MEATS/RMBs -
*** I'm planning on feeding chicken wings as the main source of RMB's. I should also add that he'll be getting wings and wings alone for the first week or so to see how his body is adjusting. The problem is that I still don't know how much and how often I should feed Riley, especially as we're beginning the switch. I don't want to feed to much, but I also don't want to starve the poor boy!! So my question here is how much would you recommend I feed him in the beginning and when (if I need to) should I increase the amount??

*** When feeding muscle meats (hearts, liver, kidneys, etc.) how much and how often should I feed?? Is it best to mix this type of meat in with his veggie mush??

- OILS -
*** The holistic vet that I went to yesterday suggested that I include flaxseed oil, fish oil, and evening primrose oil in his diet. I checked for the heck of it at my local shopping store and was able to find the primrose oil, but it's in a pill form. There are 50 pills in one bottle (500mg) for $11 and 100 of the same pill and same mg for $18. Does this sound right and how much should I include?? I was able to find cod liver oil as well. This oil was liquid in a 12 fl oz bottle for $12. Is this the fish oil she was talking about?? How much of that should I include?? If this isn't the fish oil, where can I find the it?? I was unable to find any flaxseed oil. Where do you find that, how much is it, and how much do you feed??

VEGGIES
*** Some of the veggies that she (vet) mentioned to me were new to me so I walked through the veggie section to find them and get some prices. While doing this, I came across several veggies that we don't normally buy and some that I've never even heard of before!! Of these, have any of you used them in your veggie mush??
- Cabbage, napa, bok choy, red/green swiss chard, leeks, cauliflower, broccoflower, eggplant, snow peas, brussel sprouts, asparagus, artichokes, green peppers, celery lettuce, avacados, lemon grass, anise, and mushrooms -

*** When I start to introduce veggies as a meal to Riley, what veggies would be the best to start with (to try to avoid an upset belly)?? How much of the mush do I feed in a single serving??

GRAINS
*** The vet also mentioned that I should include some type of grain. Not a lot, but to give him some that would be benificial to him. The grains that she recommended are; brown rice, millet, barley, and oats. Do any of you feed any of these and (once again) how much and how often??


I think that's it for now. I'm so sorry for all of the questions, but I'm in panic mode now. I'm ready to make the plunge (I think), but there is still so much that I need to learn. Any help you can offer me would be great!! Again, I'm sorry!!

[Jan]

Okay here goes!

RMBs - You need to feed 2 - 3 % of the body weight. So if Riley weighs 60 lbs you would need to feed 1.2 to 1.8 pounds a day of RMB's if that was all that you were feeding. 2 meals a day is best.

The ideal is 60-70% RMBs, 20-30 % veggies and about 10% offal. Balance over time is what you are aiming for. Every day can be different. I seem to recall reading that you shouldn't feed the same source of RMBs more that 3 days in a row. Fish once a week is good.

Muscle meats: liver and kidneys are not muscle meat they are offal. Heart is sometimes considered offal, but it is really muscle meat. You can add your muscle meat and offal to your veggies if you want. It all depends on how Riley will eat it. You may find that you have to add meat to the veggies before Riley will eat it.

Flax seed oil - you should be able to find it in the health food store. It will be in the cooler. Safeway stores sell it where it live in the Natural Food section. You can also buy the seeds and grind them up in a coffee grinder. This is a cheaper alternative and you don't have to worry about the oil going bad.

Cod liver oil is not what she meant by fish oil. You can give cod liver oil once a week or so. The fish oil would be Salmon oil, whole fish oil, marine oil or something along that line. I feed salmon oil. You won't find it in your local grocery store. You can usually find it at a Natural pet food store that sells premade BARF. You can also buy it online. I don't feed primrose oil, so I don't know anything about it.

Veggies - I would start off with fairly plain veggies like celery, lettuce, carrots, zucchini. Avoid the strong tasting ones at the beginning. I wouldn't feed too many of the Cole crops (ie. broccoli, cauliflour, brussel sprouts, cabbage etc.) Just don't put them in every mix. If there is any sign of arthritis, you should avoid the nightshade plants like tomatoes, peppers and eggplant. Variety is the key and there should be a mix of above ground and below ground veggies in each mix. I wouldnt feed leeks as they are part of the onion family.

Grains - I sometimes feed rice, but usually only if I have leftovers or Markus has had a rumbly tummy. As a rule the only the grains that they get are in the biscuits, which I make.

I tend to add their supplements to their veggie meals.

Hopefully this has helped a little bit. The most important thing to remember is balance over time. Their meals do not have to balanced on daily basis.

[ferrety]

Another thing to note during the switch...

Dixie is older (4) and when we switched her a year ago, the biggest trouble she had was her jaw getting sore while she was adjusting to all that crunching. So... you may want to work with chicken wings and chicken necks in the beginning until Riley adjusts. Also, to make things a little easier, I have been known to use rose shears to clip each wing bone into three sections (fewer later on) to give her a little boost.

One word of veggie advice added to Jan's... avoid GREENS! Keep a good mix of lettuce-type greens and spinach, but feed gasey greens like turnip and mustard and GET OUT OF THE WAY wormicon ...They will not let you down in the noxious boxer gas arena.

Question for Jan:
What is the relation between arthritis and nightshade plants? I notice that Dixie is slow to want to jump on the bed sometimes (don't know if it is laziness, fear of squishing us or that it is too high and hurts), but I would hate to chance anything and she gets probably 1 bell pepper a week.

We actually make mush a month at a time and give it a crude mixing in the sink that way it is not the same make up each day, but there is enough consistency that Dixie doesn't try to turn her nose up at it for veggies she prefers (radishes, celery, yellow squash).

And how about squash? okay or no? I always just thought squash and eggplant were related.

[myrocky]

Ferrty is right about the jaw getting sore, so make sure your wings are room temp so they are easier to chew. Don't give wings forever you want to be able to move onto necks/backs and other varieties. Necks/backs will be much easier on the wallet too

Broccoli, califlower, cabbage, are all gaseous veggies. Do not give them very often but every few months is fine. Mustard greens, kale, anise are all bitter tasting so try those slowly. Rocky hates bitter veggies and won't eat his mush if there is so much as a leaf in it Chard and bok choy tend to go over very well Asparagus and brussel sprouts are loved over here I think feed mushrooms are a no-no but I don't know for sure. Snow peas, celery, lettuce, green peppers, are all fine. I don't know about napa and artichokes.

Start off with light veggies, lettuce (not iceberg), carrots, and some green beans Nothing to strong or heavy as it might turn him off.

Jan is right, by fish oil she means salmon oil or something in that line. You can usually find it pretty easily in the health food (by health meaning an organic grocery store, *not* GNC ) store. You can also buy a lot of your supplements online, here is the link for one place:

http://b-naturals.com/default.php

Organs are offal, except for heart which is a muscle meat. Rocky gets chic liver twice a week mixed with his veggies. He gets muscle meat (a small amount) three times a week mixed in his veggies.

The only grain I feed is oatmeal cooked with a chic bouillion cube mixed in. I feed that if I think Rocks might not be feeling well, if he has the runs, has an upset tummy, or if he is getting a large soup bone later in the night. I don't want him to have a heavy supper then a big soup bone on top. However I don't feed grains very often because I don't feel it is appropiate. That is something for you to decide

Andie

[monkeyman]

You say... "Don't give wings forever you want to be able to move onto necks/backs and other varieties." whats the reason for this? as we give Scooby ocnly chicken wings (plus muscle meat, offal, veg etc etc each week) but for the RMB would like to stay with them - cost isnt an issue. If there's a reason not to continue with only wings we would like to know.

[myrocky]

Because variety is the key You want to be able to give other types of RMBs for the variety and for exercise. Wings also have a great deal of fat on them from the skin.

Andie

[Aimee]

Meat/RMB

My vet stressed to me at a recent visit that variety is the key. Variety meaning different protein sources. I feed 9 RMB meals a week, 2 muscle meat meals a week including the offal, 2 veggie meals and 1 fish meal. Basically she explained to me that those 9 meals should include about 3 different protein sources. I know most include their offal in with the veggies but I happen to be lucky and have a butcher who makes a dog food that is beef trimmings, 30% beef fat, beef liver and beef spleen--giving me my offal and muscle meat in one meal. You may want to check around at butcher in your area to see if they have anything similar.

Oils
You can purchase salmon oil/evening primrose oil (in the same bottle) from BARFworld. This is where I purchase mine from. You have to get the dispenser pump as well, I love it! It makes measuring a snap! I also purchase the BARFplus supplement. It covers a variety of things in one simple container. My vet doesn't recommend going overboard on supplements--she says they are not needed for healthy dogs who are given a lot of variety in their diet.

Veggies

Variable combinations of veggies are the best. A sheet that my vet has and gives out states the following:

Broccoli, spinach, cabbage, brussel sprouts, pumpkin, cauliflower, carrots, peas, celery, or dark leafy greans and whatever is in season. Do NOT use onions or any green/sprouting stems from potatoes. Do not overdo veggies from the cabbage family, beans and peas because they can surpress thyroid function if fed in excess over a long period of time.

She said that this doesn't mean not to feed them though. My mush that I am making tomorrow will contain carrots, cauliflower, broccoli, zuchini, yellow squash, green beans, romaine lettuce, corn and peas. I will also add in ground beef, eggs and cottage cheese.


Grains

My vet just talked with me about also adding in grains for my guys. She recommended feeding about 5% of the diet as grains. I haven't done so yet or decided whether or not I will, but thought I would let you know that my vet just said the same thing to us. I'd like to do some more reading on this, I'll let you know what I find

Good luck, keep us posted!

[Boxer_21]

Thank you for your replies guys. I'm still a little bit unsure of some things, but you're definitely pointing me in the right direction as well as clearing up some of my confusion.

Just to clear one thing up. I do realize that BARF should consist of a variety. I just want to feed Riley solely wings for the first week or so out of convenience for myself. I want to take this switch one step at a time. Once I can get used to and become comfortable with the fact that I'm feeding my dog raw meat, then I'll be experimenting and trying new things (including necks, backs, etc.).

I'll keep reading up on how to begin BARF (setting up a simple menu for Riley's first weeks is what's killing me) and I'll keep you posted on how Riley and I do.

[Jan]

Originally posted by ferrety

Question for Jan:
What is the relation between arthritis and nightshade plants? I notice that Dixie is slow to want to jump on the bed sometimes (don't know if it is laziness, fear of squishing us or that it is too high and hurts), but I would hate to chance anything and she gets probably 1 bell pepper a week.

I'm afraid I don't know why nightshade plants are bad, I just know that they are. If you think that Dixie is getting a bit arthritic I would avoid peppers.

I believe that eggplant is related to peppers, not squashes. All squashes are fine as far as I know.

[Aimee]

Originally posted by Boxer_21
Just to clear one thing up. I do realize that BARF should consist of a variety. I just want to feed Riley solely wings for the first week or so out of convenience for myself. I want to take this switch one step at a time. Once I can get used to and become comfortable with the fact that I'm feeding my dog raw meat, then I'll be experimenting and trying new things (including necks, backs, etc.).

I agree that you should only feed one protein source for the first week ATLEAST. It's best to get him acclimated to the diet before you begin bombarding his system with too much variety, I apologize, I should have clarified that I wouldn't be as concerned with which type of RMB you are feeding be it wings, necks or backs as I would later about the amount of variety of protein that you are feeding

[Boxer_21]

Originally posted by Aimee
I apologize, I should have clarified that

Aimee, no need to apologize!! There were a few comments made about making sure there's a variety being fed which there will be, just not right off the bat. I just wanted to clear it up so that everyone knows that I will be adding new things eventually.