RAW with a possible meat allergy

[Tuff Love]

Thank you both SO much for your feedback. Sounds like great advice. Like I mentioned above, Thora is managing ok right now, so I think you are right that I should wait to start the RAW until after her spay. I'm going to try to get in touch with my vet this weekend or early next week and talk to her about HUC and see what she thinks- if she agrees with my suspicion (she sounds like a classic case TBH, but only the passage of time made it that obvious) and if so, should we start a round of Baytril and go on with or postpone the spay. That gives me plenty of time to research RAW further

As for stools- I've seen black stools already and it scared the heck out of me because the vets said it was digested blood. When Thora first started having bloody stools she was having the black tarry ones. Later on she had bright red ones. I guess that was in part what was so puzzling to our vets. I would imagine the color and consistency of RAW fed red meat stools, even if dark, would not be the same as what she was having.

Sheryl- Thanks for updating me about Lucy. Sounds like she's making progress. My first concern when I started researching HUC was how serious of a disease it is and how it would impact her quality and length of life in the long run. It's been 1 year since I lost my Tuffer and Thora is just 10 months old- the shock of her dealing with all this already is a little overwhelming but I am trying to be hopeful that we can get everything under control and she can still have a long healthy life. It appears that HUC varies widely in how it affects individuals. Thora was never as sick as what you're describing (she was parasite-free), but she was in pretty bad shape in the beginning because she was so young when it hit. We didnt know what was wrong with her and I was so concerned about keeping her hydrated. With a young pup under 6 months old things can go from bad to worse, quick!
I bought a small bag of the Sojos complete turkey & sweet potato after finding your post about Lucy's success. I haven't tried it yet because I wasn't sure if it was ok to do kibble AND Sojos with a little raw meat (or no meat). Everything I've read so far suggests that feeding kibble and any raw food is a big no no because of digestibility and the last thing Thora needs is more trouble digesting food. However, even on the bag of Sojos it says to transition slowly from kibble to the Sojos... I don't know what to believe now
The runny poo thing does still concern me. I guess I'm worried if I cold turkey transition her, will it cause a colitis flare up and THAT'S what the runny stools are, or is it the effects of going RAW? I don't want her to lose any weight because she's small as it is.... will cutting most of the fat off the quarters in the beginning make her lose weight? Is it suitable to start out the first week on chicken quarters alone or should I just play it by ear and watch how she reacts and add changes in lieu of her system's acceptance?

Ahhhh so much to learn!

I joined the RAW yahoo group as suggested and I read through some of the messages (took me a bit to get used to the layout). I researched HUC and colitis to see if anyone else had issues and the only post I found was yours, Sheryl For as common as HUC seems to be in boxers and how popular RAW is becoming, I would have thought I would come up with more cases of the 2 together.

[Stub]

It is optimal for the dog to switch cold turkey, but if you are truly worried you can always do one meal of kibble and then later a raw meal. Actually, raw digests so much faster than kibble that it might be better to make breakfast raw and dinner kibble. Just don't feed the two together and you should be fine. Cutting all the fat/skin off the chicken will not cause her to lose weight or be lethargic, it just helps control the stool while they transition. I meant that over the long term it would negatively affect the dog, not during transition for a few weeks or even a month.

You are right, the dark stools from red meat will be different than tarry ones. I always wondered if I'd know the difference between 'tarry' when a dog is sick, and just dark from eating red meat, until I saw a neighbors dog who was very sick having tarry stools. SO different! If you start to switch Thora and she gets musousy or runny stools or even explosive diarrhea (which I read about in one case of switching and it lasted two weeks!) as long as it is not bloody I would TRY not to worry that it was colitis, but is instead normal switching digestive upset. The transition period can last from just a few days to several weeks, so it is important that you expect that.

It is totally fine to feed nothing but chicken quarters exclusively for a couple weeks until her system is used to raw meals and then you can start adding back the skin and fat and introducing new meat sources. It's all done VERY slowly and gradually, to minimize upset. And in several months when she is totally transitioned you'll be amazed what she can eat without problem. It's all about balance over time. No one eats 100% nutritious at every meal and we don't have to expect our dogs to either.

Anyway, my experience with pre-made raw is that it does NOT cause any runny stool at all. I've not tried Sojo's, but Gus has had Instinct frozen pre-made raw and for him it is practically like eating kibble (it does have some veg) and his poops are big and solid on it. I think the pre-mades have significant ground bone content, which helps a lot with transition. So if you want to start with a pre-made raw (with or without extra added meat) just to see how she likes it that is great too. Plus you won't worry about nutrition that way. I keep a couple tubes of Instinct in my freezer for if Gus has a few too many runny stools in a row (sometimes I feed him what I got free off craigslist and some of it is very fatty!) I give him that for a few days and it clears him right up.

Hope that helps!

[Tuff Love]

Great info, thanks Maybe I will try out the dehydrated raw first and see how she likes it and how she does on it. I am waiting for the vet to get back to me to discuss the HUC. Thora's having another one of those days where she doesn't want to eat her breakfast. I added some water to her kibble to entice her and she finally ate half of it just now at lunch. I heard her belly gurgling a bit last night and this morning but I haven't given her anything that would cause it. She was trying to eat my indoor palm tree too.. grrrr. I know that raw isn't a miracle worker, but i am really hoping that when we finally take the plunge it helps with some of these digestive upsets. I feel so bad for her.

[SherylM]

I completely agree with everything that Corinne said about transitioning to raw. I also like the suggestion of premade raw, the frozen patties. I actually used the for about a week prior to switching completely to prey model raw with my Bostons. It has been so long that I had forgotten about that! That may be a good place to start with Thora instead of Sojos. There was no tummy upset from using Instict at all. And you can switch right over without gradually doing it. Good luck with speaking to your vet. Hopefully she/he will encourage raw feeding. I am extremely lucky that all the vets at my clinic feed raw.

[Tuff Love]

I'll look into the Instinct patties. Last time we were considering switching I looked at the patties because that's what my FIL fed his frenchy for the first year. The patties are pretty expensive though and I couldn't see feeding that exclusively for very long. Still waiting for my vet to get back to me. They get so busy there that it's usually a few days before they return my calls if it's not an emergency (and I specified that it wasn't). Thora was being finicky about eating all weekend again She'll gobble her food if I add some canned to it, but otherwise she's just not as voracious an eater as she used to be. I wish there was so way for me to know why- if her tummy is upset or what.

Sheryl- How does Lucy act on her "off" days? Has she had any bloody stool or anything since going through the Baytril treatment?

[SherylM]

Originally Posted by Tuff Love

I'll look into the Instinct patties. Last time we were considering switching I looked at the patties because that's what my FIL fed his frenchy for the first year. The patties are pretty expensive though and I couldn't see feeding that exclusively for very long. Still waiting for my vet to get back to me. They get so busy there that it's usually a few days before they return my calls if it's not an emergency (and I specified that it wasn't). Thora was being finicky about eating all weekend again She'll gobble her food if I add some canned to it, but otherwise she's just not as voracious an eater as she used to be. I wish there was so way for me to know why- if her tummy is upset or what.

Sheryl- How does Lucy act on her "off" days? Has she had any bloody stool or anything since going through the Baytril treatment?

We are so fortunate that Lucy does not have any "off" days. There has never been a time where she has turned up her nose at food, probably because she was starved the first year of her life! Her "off" time was when she was so sick prior to the HUC diagnosis that she became very lethargic and very depressed. She always looked and acted so very sad. I think she was in so much pain that it overwhelmed everything else. There was a time when we thought she wouldn't make it because of her lethargy and depression. The vet said that her intestines were probably so badly damaged that she was in constant pain and discomfort.

The only time she has had a flare up of the HUC since the initial treatment of Baytril was when I attempted to switch her to kibble (TOTW). I thought the kibble would put some weight on her quickly....wrong! Within 3 days she was back to bloody diarreha. She had another quick round of metronidazol (sp) and back on to Sojo's and she was better in no time.

I keep meaning to mention how we determined that Lucy needed veggies in her raw diet...it came about by chance and misadventure! One day while Lucy was still on chicken quarters exclusively she somehow managed to get a sweet potato off the counter and eat the whole thing. We were so worried about how her body would react to it that we practically stood over top her her each time she went outside to do her business. What we discovered, much to our surprise, was that the sweet potato actually helped firm up her stools..hence the reason she now gets veggies in her diet!

I sure hope your vet gets back to you soon. I know how you must feeling waiting for an answer.

[Tuff Love]

That's great that Lucy hasn't had any other episodes since the initial treatment. Thora hasn't had any bloody stool since her initial sickness, but she still has like 4-6 BM's a day! On the days that her appetite is poor, she has more BM's (6 or so), otherwise she has about 3 or 4. I know frequent BM's are another hallmark of HUC. I also see her looking for grass (i assume) on her off days so I know she's having some belly upsets still. I don't mean to ask so many questions but you've been so helpful sharing Lucy's experiences. Does she have a lot of BM's throughout the day or is she back to a normal schedule? I need to stop at the pet store tonight and get some canned food and treats, so I'll check and see if they carry the Instinct Raw. I saw online that they carry a freeze dried raw but holy moly do they have a lot of protein! With the frozen raw, should I transition that to her kibble too? Or is it like regular raw when you have to split the meals and not give with kibble?

[SherylM]

Originally Posted by Tuff Love

That's great that Lucy hasn't had any other episodes since the initial treatment. Thora hasn't had any bloody stool since her initial sickness, but she still has like 4-6 BM's a day! On the days that her appetite is poor, she has more BM's (6 or so), otherwise she has about 3 or 4. I know frequent BM's are another hallmark of HUC. I also see her looking for grass (i assume) on her off days so I know she's having some belly upsets still. I don't mean to ask so many questions but you've been so helpful sharing Lucy's experiences. Does she have a lot of BM's throughout the day or is she back to a normal schedule? I need to stop at the pet store tonight and get some canned food and treats, so I'll check and see if they carry the Instinct Raw. I saw online that they carry a freeze dried raw but holy moly do they have a lot of protein! With the frozen raw, should I transition that to her kibble too? Or is it like regular raw when you have to split the meals and not give with kibble?

I don't mind you asking questions. When I was first learning about HUC there was someone who helped me tremendously and I learned so much from them. I think it's only right that we all "pay it forward" when it comes to the health and happiness of our dogs. As for Lucy's BM's..she has two a day now!! Yay!!! We celebrated her first "normal" stool like crazy and when she stopped going 12-15 times per day we celebrated that too!!!

WIth the Instict we used it like regular raw. A complete change over and no kibble. The price of any premade raw or dehydrated raw is always very expensive. In our case the cost is definitely worth it! When I transitioned my Terrorists to Instict it was only for a week because I was way too chicken to go completely raw right off the bat! What kind of canned food are you using? I really like the Wysong canned food because all it contains is meat, no veggies or fillers.

[Stub]

Instinct patties are tremendously expensive, but they also make 2-lb tubes which (here, at least) are 6-7$ ea. Still pretty high but at least you are getting 2 whole lbs of food rather than an 8-oz bag of patties.

If you decide to switch to a pre-made just at first I'd definitely not feed it with kibble. Raw is still raw, even if it is ground up and looks canned, and does contain some raw veges. Also keep in mind that a raw meat diet by it's very nature is going to be extremely high in protein. The difference is that the whole, not-chemically-altered (by cooking or processing in some factory) state of that protein is what you dog's body is naturally made to digest. There are NO bad effects from a high protein raw diet.

[Tuff Love]

Ok, so no mixing the kibble and pre-made raw. Got it. I know premade raw is expensive, but I wouldn't mind buying it for a little if it might help her with transition. I'm just hoping to find anything at this point that will help her feel better and have less days where she has an upset tummy. Right now I've just been mixing a little bit of canned food with Thora's kibble on the days she isn't interested in eating. On a day when she doesn't want to eat her kibble she won't even eat pieces of cheese, but she'll eat her food if it's mixed with canned. I use the same formula as her kibble, the Natural Balance Venison & Sweet Potato. She loves it.

I heard that high proteins can sometimes be too much for dogs with sensitive stomachs and health issues. That freeze dried raw has something like 40% protein which is more than I've seen in any dog food before, so I was just a little shocked. What you say Corinne makes sense though.