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[SillySherlok]

Hello everyone

I came here once for advice and you helped me and Sherlock tremendously. I have more questions/problems that I'm curious about if you don't mind.

Sherlock was started on the raw diet with just chicken quarters for his colitis. His stools became hard and we're so happy. He slowly put on weight and is now 65 lbs. He has had pyoderma one time and we did chinese herbs to try and get to the root of the underlying issue. Didn't work and then we used cefalexin. Now, he has a recurring case of pyoderma and at our last visit to the vet, the vet said he has a food allergy. I told the vet that he is on the raw diet and I've never heard of dogs having allergies to raw meat.

First question: Can dogs have an allergy to raw meat?

He is on both chicken and turkey (necks and wings). I feed him about 2 lbs per day.
The vet recommended that I switch him to an allergen free diet, Hills ZD. I started him on this today. This morning, he wouldn't eat his raw food and he was very lethargic. I think he has a cold; not being related to food. I hope. He felt much better this evening and ate the ZD diet. He is also on another round of cefalexin and I am giving him yogurt to help replenish his flora. On our afternoon walk, he kept running up to bushes and anywhere he could smell grass. He was trying to eat grass, which I believe means he has an upset tummy.

Second question: Is this a typical reaction sometimes in dogs who have colitis?

I feel very helpless right now, b/c I've been reading reviews on the ZD and some people like it, but then there are carcinogens in the food that scare me. I refuse to feed him something with high amounts of carcinogens in it. They are: BHA and Ethoxyquin.

Third question:
Is it possible to have a mineral or vitamin deficiency with just eating raw chicken? I think I've asked this before and I apologize, but should I be supplementing his raw chicken diet with something else to help with any deficiencies or help with these upset tummy episodes?

I just don't feel comfortable with this ZD diet now and I want to continue on with the raw diet. But, I need to get rid of this recurring pyoderma and I am not a fan of giving him repeated doses of antibiotics to rid him of it; even though it's working. I tried feeding him offel and he did fine with hearts, necks, kidneys and lungs. He did well on the stomach too. It is my hunch that isn't doing well with the turkey though. But they are very similar game.

I apologize for this lengthy post, but I am at a wits end right now with this recurring pyoderma and his upset tummy episodes. I'm expecting a baby in November and I am trying to nail his diet down before the baby arrives so I can focus on becoming a new mom and not have to worry so much about my fur baby too.

Thanks for listening and thanks for your help

[gmacleod]

Yes, dogs can have allergies to raw foods. It is less common than with kibble, but it can certainly happen. It is possible to be allergic to absolutely anything, after all.

Where is the pyoderma? And is that his only symptom? Signs of food allergies usually include itchy face, feet and recurrent ear infections. Very often the dog also has loose/frequent bowel movements also.

In any case, I would make two remarks: first, the risk of developing a food allergy is highest when the dog eats the same thing all the time. On a raw diet, a general rule of thumb (for nutritional adequacy reasons) is that the dog should not eat the same thing for more than 3 meals in a row, and you should have a good 4-5 different meats in his diet. Thus far, you're only feeding chicken and turkey - does that mean you've only been feeding raw for a few weeks? A restricted diet is usual for just starting raw, but in the longer term, you need more variety. To your specific question, YES you will have dietary deficiencies if you feed only chicken. Just as you would have them yourself if you ate only one thing.

My second remark is that there is only one way to tell if a dog has a food allergy, and that is to try an elimination diet. In your case, this would mean ceasing to feed chicken/turkey and instead feeding a different meat altogether.

I would make two suggestions (which do not include feeding any sort of kibble, most especially ZD) to help you sort things out for him:

1. Stop feeding chicken & turkey for a little while, and give him other raw foods instead. You need to choose things he has not eaten before, because it is impossible that he can have a food allergy to something he has not previously been exposed to. Suggestions could include rabbit, beef, lamb, fish... Whatever you can obtain at reasonable cost. IF it is a food allergy your dog is suffering from, his symptoms WILL dissipate when the allergen is removed from his diet (note that it can take up to 12 weeks for symptoms to disappear completely). If the symptoms do not disappear with that sort of diet change, you have *proven* that the problem is not the food. If they do disappear, then it is probable that the problem was food, and you should move on to step 2 below to identify exactly what the offending item is.
2. To see if chicken and/or turkey are problematic, you should add them back into his diet - individually, so it is clear whether one/both/none is a problem. If symptoms recur with the reintroduction of (say) turkey, and not with chicken, then you know it is turkey that is a problem and that you shouldn't feed again.

Technically, of course, you would achieve exactly the same thing as (1) above by feeding the ZD That is, complete change of diet and removal of anything its possible for the dog to already be allergic to (I HOPE your vet also had a step 2 in mind, rather than just interim problem avoidance). However, as you also note, ZD is some of the nastiest junk on the planet nutrition-wise and loaded with carcinogenic chemicals to boot. Really not the sort of thing you want your dog to eat unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Well, it isn't unavoidable in your case - and on top of that, you've got the colitis issue to consider, which may well recur with a kibble diet. In short, in your position, I would choose to tackle the elimination trial via raw food (different raw food from that he's been eating and could be allergic to) than via junk food that is liable to bring on the colitis again.

One last thought: when it comes time to test his reaction to the reintroduction of chicken & turkey, I would strongly suggest you try feeding different parts. Most especially, I would dump the chicken wings and instead feed meaty parts such as quarters or thighs. I'd also take a bit of the skin off, in case the pyoderma is just plain due to the high amounts of fat in his diet (chicken skin is very fatty, and chicken wings are mostly skin).

The thing about chicken wings is that they are a great part for new raw feeders to use, especially if the dog needs to be taught how to chew (since you can hang onto an end, whilst the dog chews the other without also munching your fingers). But they're of bugger-all use beyond that. Chicken wings have the densest and most difficult-to-digest bones in a chicken, almost zero meat, but lots of skin/fat. In short, the most useless bit of the chicken. Beyond teaching the dog to chew, I don't think they have any real use and provide the least nutrition. They also are the most likely to cause digestive upset, due to being just skin/fat and bone. I suspect it is just possible that that could be the cause of the pyoderma (especially if other allergy symptoms are absent - see question right at the beginning of this post).

So - if chicken turns out not to be a problem, I would suggest switching to a more meaty part, and pulling a little of the skin off prior to feeding. Longer term, you should also continue to introduce new meats to his diet, as just chicken/turkey - allergies or not - is not adequate nutritionally. You'd only consider such a restricted diet if medical problems made it impossible to feed more variety.

[SillySherlok]

That was a very simplified and thorough answer for me, thank you! Of course, the colitis was ignited by the ZD diet and I'm going to take it back on Monday, as I don't get a good feeling about it. I was feeding him chicken quarters, necks and offel. Turkey was wings and neck. I think I am going to start by raw chicken again tomorrow and then Monday go to a local farm and get some raw rabbit for him to try. Any parts on the rabbit I should avoid? Unfortunately, he has been on chicken for long while now. Poor parenting I wasn't exactly sure I was following the raw diet correctly and I had a feeling I wasn't. Your response has really helped me understand more than I had.

Awhile ago, I tried venison and he got the runs. So every three days I should switch up his meats, correct?

You've been so helpful
Really appreciate it!!

[gmacleod]

There are no parts of the rabbit that you need to avoid - simplest thing would be to get whole ones and just chop them up to meal sized pieces (probably you'd get 4 meals per bunny, so no need to chop any finer than 'quarters').

Once you have a supply of a new meat sorted out for him, you need to dump both the chicken and the turkey for several weeks (probably 12 weeks). Realistically, if he has a food allergy, then the most likely thing to be causing the problem is chicken (though it could still be the turkey), so you will need to be quite certain not to feed any of that over the trial period. If you get stuck for something to feed, another new meat or some canned oily fish (e.g. mackeral or sardines, not tuna).

Now of course, whilst you're doing this elimination trial, you don't need to be focused on providing variety in his diet. But once it's over and you've sorted out what he can and can't eat (i.e. if he has any food allergies or sensitivities), then yes, the dog needs more variety than he was getting.

The general rule of thumb is a change no less frequently than every 3 meals (not days!). That means he gets something different to eat every 1-2 days (if you feed twice daily, as most of us do). And ideally, you should have a good 4-5 different meats in your arsenal (one of which could be the canned oily fish, as above). You can still have one or two things in the diet that get fed more often than anything else, but they should not make up more than 50-60% of the meats you feed. The remaining 40-50% needs to be a range of different things.

Just as an example then, someone might end up feeding a menu that went something like this:

AM1 chicken
PM1 fish
AM2 chicken
PM2 lamb
AM3 lamb
PM3 turkey
AM4 rabbit
PM4 turkey
AM5 rabbit
PM5 beef
AM6 chicken
PM6 beef
AM7 chicken
PM7 chicken

That is 14 meals total, broken up as:
5 x chicken = 36%
2 x beef = 14%
2 x lamb = 14%
2 x turkey = 14%
2 x rabbit = 14%
1 x fish = 7%

That is probably more varied than most people manage - but you can see the principle there, you're swapping around between a few different meats, and none of them get fed more than 3 times in a row. If you were to reduce the number of meats in that mix to (say) 4 instead of 6, then each one gets fed a bit more often. And if one of them is the staple to the point that it's fed for 7 or 8 meals out of the 14 (it should not be more than that) then you still should arrange things so that there are some days that that meat is NOT fed. This helps to avoid the constant exposure that is liable to lead to an allergy forming.

Anyway, concentrate for the moment on sorting out the allergy trial so you can find out whether or not that is his problem, and if it is, which one out of chicken and turkey you're not going to be able to feed again (hopefully its not both). Once that is all sorted out, THEN turn your attention to providing a varied diet over the long term

[SillySherlok]

Totally broken down for me and very helpful; I cannot thank you enough I appreciate you taking the time to write it all down for me. Printing this out and saving it and I'm sure others who are considering the BARF diet will appreciate your reply!! Thanks again