Obedience Class and the Culture Clash

[Lola's Grrl]

I was all set up to sign Lola up for obedience classes this week, and then I went and read 'The Culture Class' (btw - GREATBOOK! ), and now I need advice.

The training school most highly recommended by my vet, and breeders in my area, is run by a wonderful woman who also teaches conformation and agility. She is very friendly, has been doing this for years, uses only positive training methods, and obviously knows A LOT about dogs. The problem is she uses 'Praise Only' methods, meaning the dogs are motivated by praise rather than a food or toy reward. I was thinking this was neat, until the book squashed my naivete.

SO what should I do? Should I look for a less well-known, and possibly less well-respected positive training school, just because they use food rewards, or should I stick with the school recommended and risk getting frustrated with the "Praise Only" method? Can you help?

[DIZKOS]

Mac has been through several classes, most with the same school and we have NEVER used food for training. He is a certifed therapy dog, he has competed in fly ball and agility. Because our boxers are sooooo smart it's my opinon that with a little paitence and hard work you both will do GREAT!

[BeckyNC]

I'm no expert, but hey, that sounds great--no need to carry treats on walks to entice your pup to heel, etc. I got so tired of carrying treats on my walks, along with house keys, poop bags, etc., that I stopped working on somethings. Bad, I know...

[Evie&Adam]

Adam has never responded to training with treats- it's all about the praise! Its tough going tho- that's why we start class tomorrow (now that he is better around other doggies). Evie did training with treats. Her response was amazing and fast. Now that she is 2, its not needed all the time when we have training time.

[Lola's Grrl]

I love the idea of praise training - and I'm glad to hear it worked for so many of you! Maybe it's silly for me to be second guessing myself over one book, but the case it made was very convincing.

For those of you that haven't read The Culture Clash, it responds that dogs are animals who are best trained with a very simple reward system (ie. food, toys, etc.), because they really have no inherent need or drive to be "praised", unlike their drive for food and other rewards. Therefore, training with food or other "treats" will train the dog better (and much faster) than without. (I'm sorry if I butchered the explanation, please feel free to add to it or clarify)

I'm still confused. Lola is only seven weeks, so she can't start classes until the end of this month at the earliest. I just want to make sure I make the right decision for us.

[boxbud]

My first boxer did great with praise. Treats never motivated him.
But Toby is another story. It seems like praise is secondary thing to him. I have been able to train him with treats and now I rarely use them and he is fine. He is 15 months old now. I feel with him, praise only would have never worked. He is a rescue puppy so there may be a social thing about the praise that didn't work when he was a puppy. But of course highly motivated with treats due to little food when a puppy.
I've done both so you may have to see how your puppy is. Praise only if great if it works for you. If not, treats could be a backup plan.
Good luck.

[angray]

I like the idea of praise rewarding instead of always using food rewards. We are planning to have Mugsy take the test to be certified for a therapy dog once he had completed and passed his CGC and I was told that neither test allows the use of food/treats for rewards.

[Tulsa-Dan]

As long as they are using positive reinforcement techniques, treats or praise will work.

I used treats for training Maggie but Susie wasn't at all interested in treats (still isn't). So, I trained her with praise and kisses. Worked just as well as with Maggie and food.

In my training classes, I use food rewards to lure and shape behaviors and then almost immediately start weaning the dogs off the treats for a behavior they understand, replacing it with praise, a pet, a "good dog" or a kiss, whatever the dog enjoys and responds to.

No reason not to attend the class and see what it is all about. If you find it isn't working for your dog, you can always discuss the use of food rewards with the instructor and perhaps use a few for the more difficult behavioral work.

[adobeboxers]

I think a lot of your success in training also depends on your pup. I know with Tucker he only wanted and still only looks for praise. He would rather you give him a good boy and a happy face/high voice then food. Sure food is an extra benefit but he will listen with out and it was easy to train him. Titus on the other hand, when I tried praise only, he would look at me like, what is in it for me? He is all about the food and he wants it to be good treats too.

Like others have said, go to the class and see how it works.

[SHowell]

Are any of you that have replied using the choke or prong collar for training? My 6 month old boxer would not tolerate the gentle leader and my trainer had put her in the choke chain. However, she will still lunge in it at other dogs and now she is in the prong collar. I had worked for 3 months on the positive training with her, but she will not listen when there are any distractions at all, dogs, strangers, moths, lightening bugs.........you name it..........and will lunge at all of them..........

My trainer says she is the smartest boxer she has ever seen and also the most stubborn. She is also very small.......35 lbs. for 6 months and has a very short nose. My trainer says the gentle leader is putting too much pressure on her sinuses and tear ducts. She suggested not getting any type of harness as it only causes her to pull constantly.

I would like to know what those of you who have dogs achieving the CGC or Therapy certs. are or have used as your training technique.

And yes, before I get the onslaught of books to read......I have read different ones about training.........each is a little different........

I would like some feedback as to what is really working with the boxers. It is obvious that pulling and lunging is a terrible trait of the breed.......what has stopped it?

Sheila

[Lola's Grrl]

I've had Lola at the house for about 5 days now and as of right now she doesn't respond to treats at all. She is very needy and LOVES people and attention, so it turns out that praise-based training may be right for after all. Thank you for your very valuable advice and experience.

[tcarlisle]

Originally Posted by SHowell

Are any of you that have replied using the choke or prong collar for training? My 6 month old boxer would not tolerate the gentle leader and my trainer had put her in the choke chain. However, she will still lunge in it at other dogs and now she is in the prong collar. I had worked for 3 months on the positive training with her, but she will not listen when there are any distractions at all, dogs, strangers, moths, lightening bugs.........you name it..........and will lunge at all of them..........

Well, this is a can of worms that I hate to open

Let me answer with my OPINION. It depends on what you mean by "training". Training, in the context of training a dog to sit, down, heel, etc. should be done by positive reinforcement only.

But "training" is also used in the context of modifying behavior such as in correcting behavior problems. Yes, even in correcting behavior problems you should always try positive methods first. But the reality is that there is a place for negative reinforcement in correcting some behavior issues.

These days, I would not recommend a prong collar to anyone. That is not because I don't think there is ever a need for a leash correction, but because I am not satisfied that people giving leash corrections know enough to be given that power. In other words, the potential for abuse is high when the corrective collar is used by the novice.

In your situation, I would not recommend a prong collar. A 6 month old pup is too young to be subjected to negative reinforcement. The possibility of breaking the dog's spirit is too high, and that woudl mean permamnent psychological damage. A 6 month puppy cannot be expected to behave perfectly. He is experiencing the world for the first time, and everything excites him. PUtting a choke collar on a 6 month pup to prevent him from experienceing the worl is somewhat akin to slapping a 6 month baby for smiling and reaching arms out to strangers in curiosity.

The gentle leader is a negative reinforcemement tool. Just like a prong collar, the gentle leader provides an undesirable consequence to pulling. The idea is that the negative consequence will provide motivation to modify the dog's behavior. However, the undesirable consequence of a GL is not as severe as a prong collar, and that is better for the dog physically and mentally.

If your trainer could not get effective results with a gentle leader, then I would guess the dog was not properly acclimated to it or the expectations for a 6 month pup's behavior are just a little too high.

And whether one is for or against prong collars is not really relevant -- I don't know many people that are for prong collars but would agree it is appropriate to use on a 6 mo pup in the scenario you describe. I would therefore be very highly suspicious of the experience level of your trainer. Add to that that he says your dog is the most stubborn he has seen - then he just doesn't work with boxers or similar breeds.

Lastly, regarding the justification for using a prong collar on a 6 month pup was that the trainer was concerned about damage to sinuses and tear ducts. My response would be -- how would you compare that damage with the damage a prong collar is doing to the dogs neck and spirit?

The more I think about this, the madder I get. So I guess I better shut up now. But I am incapable of shutting up, so one more thing

We must always remember that when we are modifying dog behavior we are modifying the behavior AWAY from the nature of the dog. Dog's were not born on leashes, and when confined to a leash their naturasl instinct is to pull to the end and try to get away from the confines of the leash. If we look at it from that angle, it is easy to see why we need to be patient and minimize pain in the process.

The quick way to solving the problem is not always the best way.

PS -- the hostility in this e-mail is directed at the trainer. I commend SHowell for asking the question. By asking the question, that signifies that you know the trainers direction is suspect.