Obedience Class and the Culture Clash

[tcarlisle]

I had not noticed that SHowell has been banned, and presumably it is for asking the question about the prong collar. As I re-read my response, I am confident that I did not advocate the use of the prong collar, but who knows I may be banned as well for responding.

Moderator(s) -- I know Boxer World's stance on prongs, chokers, electric etc. "training" devices. I am not challenging that position at all. But I am asking you to not ban users who are asking a question, especially when they are asking about something that a "professional trainer" is directing them to do.

Another BW member has privately messaged me stating they are in the same position (poor results with a GL, and trainer prescribing a prong), and asking for advice on this topic since the discussion is taboo.

If people are not allowed to ask these questions here, then how can the members of BW help these people -- and more importantly the dogs that bear the abuse that trainers will advise?

I am not saying that BW should tolerate people advocating these devices, but rather that BW recognize the context in which the discussion came about.

That being said, to address the question that was asked of me privately.... I was asked how to handle the situation where a boxer won't acclimate to a GL, and what optons exist when the vet is recommending against the GL (due to eye damage) and the "trainer" is recommending a prong.

In that scenario, the inexperienced dog owner is going to listen to the advice, and strap a prong on their pup.

So what is my advice? See the next post (I want to seperate my advice from my plea to the moderators)

[marciafinn]

Mason has never responded to food rewards. I used toys, praise & play time as his rewards since these motivated him. I think any positive reinforcement is great - you just need to find the best tool that works for you & your baby. Good luck!

Marcia & Mason

P.S. I bought him a kong for his 4th birthday & filled it with goodies. Within 5 minutes he had no interest.

[tcarlisle]

Originally Posted by tcarlisle

So what is my advice? See the next post (I want to seperate my advice from my plea to the moderators)

What is my advice? Well, there is a sticky thread about acclimating a boxer to a GL in this forum that probably has all the information one needs. In addition, I would point out that acclimating a dog to wearing a device on their head takes time, patience, and perseverance.

I would guess there are people that buy one, strap it on, and try to walk the dog. That is too much all at once. Start of little by little. Put it on the dog for short periods of time (without a leash attached) and let him get used to having it on his head. If he paws at it, etc. just redirect his attention to a toy. Or let him paw at it and learn he can't get out of it. Reward him for wearing it with food, etc.

Then you attach a leash, but don't hold the other end. Let him get used to wearing the GL and dragging the leash.

Then you hold the leash and walk him around the house.

Then you take him for short walks outside, and at this point expect regression. Why? Becuase in the house there are not all the distractions. Doing this outside is the first time this is being done under distraction. Expect progress to go back a few steps, and simply take the dog back in the house so he can be successful at walking on the leash with the GL.

It is a slow process to get the dog that is trained to walk ona GL in a controlled environment, to be able to transfer that training and do it in an uncontrolled environment. Take it little by little, and it will happen. Expect too much, too quick, and it probably won't happen. Stay calm and cool, it will happen. Loose your frustration, and it won't.

Now the dilemna of course is that this process could take days, or even weeks. How do you walk the dog in the meantime? Well, the old fashioned way -- on a regular flat buckle collar and a leash. Will he pull, lunge, etc? Of course. He has not been trained not to yet. And he can't be trained not to until you get him acclimated to the GL. So for the time being, you just have to manage as best you can.

If he pulls, stop and gently reel him in and then start again. There really isn't much more you can do, and you can't expect miracles at this point. Walking the dog on a regular collar is just temporary until you can get the GL in use.

Once you get the GL in use, I am sure there are plenty of articles and information sources available for using the GL to train the dog not to pull. The key is to actually train the dog -- that means marking the behavior you want with positive reinforcement, and marking the behavior you don't want with negative reinforcement. The GL provides the physical negative reinforcement, and you just provide the verbal (No). If you don't actually train, and you just walk the dog on the GL, you will probably end up in a situation where the dog still won't walk on a leash without the GL. That would mean he never really got trained.

When the dog walks proplerly on the GL, and seems to understand that he is not supposed to walk at the end of the leash with the leash pulled tight, then I would move to weaning the dog from the GL. This can be done when the dog does not pull to the end of the GL, even amongst distractions (kids, other dogs, etc). If the dog does not walk propoerly on the GL amongst distractions, training is not yet completed.

But if training is completed, wean him off the GL. Walk him on the GL most of the time, but then take him for short walks on a buckle collar. If he walks propoerly, praise him. If he walks like a maniac, go back to the GL -- he ain't ready. If he walks good, but pulls sometimes, he is almost there. Shorten the lengths of the non-GL walks and minimize distractions to create the opportunity for the dog to succeed. Then over time increase the length and distraction levels.

Training a dog not to pull is no different than training him to sit. People will argue that, until I clarify -- I am not talking about training a dog to sit in the living room in a controlled environment. Anyone can do that. I am talking about training a dog to sit in any environment, with any level of distractions. Training that type of sit and trainign the dog to walk without pulling is the same fundamental process.

The difference is that most people don't train the "sit" to that level, and they are perfectly happy if the dog sits 90% of the time, and they really don't expect the dog to sit more than 25% of the time if other dogs are present, etc.

But walking the dog must be trained completely -- 100% of the time, and amongst distractions. So the majority of dog owners/trainers really only get exposed to true, complete training when it comes to teaching the dog to walk on a lead. That is because the environment the dog will walk in is uncontrolled and full of distractions.

So my overall recommendation for people having significant difficulty in training their dog to walk on a lead is: make sure your expectations are set correctly, follow the process of training a little at a time, and don't consider the training done until the dog can perform consistently in any environment with any level of distraction. And to get to that point you work up to it by starting in a controlled environement, and expanding that environment and adding distractions over time. That takes time, patience, perseverance, and self control.

A key point to be made is that dogs cannot transfer their learning like we can. Not realizing that simple fact makes training frustrating and often ineffective. For example, if you train your dog to sit in your living room and then take him oustide you will find he probably won't sit. To us, the situation is so similar that we think the learning shoudl transfer -- but to the dog the situation is so different that he basically needs to be taught again in the nex environment. So you can't teach the dog the command, and expect it to transfer under different circumstances. You have to re-train the command under as many set of circumstances as you can.

And yes, throughout the training process your neighbors that are watching you walk your maniac will silently chuckle to themselves -- but weeks later when they see the difference they will silently say "wow".

And then if you decide to train formal heeling, you will be amazed at how simple it will be for you since you properly (and completely) trained walking on a lead. Training a dog to heel is revered as a monumental accomplishment, but the simple fact is it is simple if the proper groundwork has been laid -- and teh foundation for that is a dog that walks propoerly on a lead. If the dog doesn't walk properly on a lead, the chances he can me trained to heel are nil.

But that brings me to a related opint back to training walking on a lead -- walk your dog on your left side throughout the process of training your dog to walk on a lead. When you later get to teh point of training the heel, you will be glad you already trained the dog to walk on your left. As you train walking on a lead, just keep him on the left -- don't make him actually heel. If he walks wide, forward, or even lagging the "heel" position -- don't worry about it. The goal at this point is to get him to walk on the left and not at the end of the leash. As long as the leash has slack you have reached your goal for walking on a lead.

Another tip -- as you train walking on a lead also try to train the dog to do it proudly. When you are done training the dog to walk on a lead, before you check off training as complete observe and make sure the dog is walking happily. If not, find out why and fix it. You want the dog to walk confidently, proudly, and happily. Not apprehensivley and confused.

[tcarlisle]

Now, in an attempt to bring this all the way back to the topic of the thread (whether to use food rewards in training).... My advice is to do whatever works for you. If using praise only works, that is great. If your trainer can show you how to get good results without food rewards, that is great.

But my OPINION is this -- food rewards will expedite the process, and raise the dog's willingness to be trained even further. Here is why -- to train a dog, you have to be able to communicate with the dog. You have to communicate what you expect him to do, and when he catches on and does it you need to be able to communicate "yes, that is exactly what I am looking for!".

The primary language of the dog is food -- so to communicate with the dog in the best manner you have to speak his language.

For the "teaching phase", I know of no better way to communicate to a dog that "sit" means to put your rump on the ground than to use a food to lure the dog into a sit. Some people pull upwards on the leash while pushing down oin the dog's rear end, or other physical methods to coerce the dog into sitting. Dog's don't like to be pushed and pulled, and in my experience luring the dog to sit using a morsel of food is the best approach.

And the beauty of using a food lure is that you have the food in your hand and using the scent to lure the dog into performing the command. Then, as soon as the dog does it, you open your hand and the dog gets the reward. Adn the best thing of all is that the timing you use to open your hand specifically marks the behavior the food is rewarding.

Using a food reward very quick, and very effective at getting through the "teaching" phase. After the teaching phase, you move to the consistency phase. This is when the dog already understands the command, and now you perform it repetitously and in different environments to make the dog's performanc eof that command rock solid. Throughout this process, you also wean the dog off the food reward -- little by little.

Here is what it looks like, using "sit" as an example. Take a morsel of food and put it in your hand and close your fist. Let the dog smell it so he knows it is there. He will probably try to lick your hand to get it open. Take your hand out of reach in front of him, and as you say "sit" pass your hand in front of and over his head and keep it moving toweard his rear to the point that for him to keep looking at it he will naturally sit. As soon as his rear starts to drop say "Good Boy!" and then when the rear hits the ground open the hand and give him access to the reward.

Saying "Good Boy!" when you notice he is moving into the right position marks the behavior and gives him feedback that his decision to move his butt is exactly what you wanted. Then a second later when his butt is on the ground the reward is presented.

And you always say the same thing to mark the point that he decided to follow the command. "I use Good Boy!" You can say anything you want as long as it is up-beat, but to be most effective it should be short. Technically "Good!" would be even better, because it is a shorter word and it marks the behavior even more specifically than a long phrase.

There are people that will argue that using food reward results in a dog that only obeys when there is food -- i.e. as a bribe. That is not true, as many people can attest. Here is why -- over time the dog will associate the positive marker ("Good Boy!") with "I just did the right thing and food is coming!". He will learn to work for the verbal positive marker, because he learns that the sequence is this: 1) I do what is asked 2) I get the verbal 3) I get the food. The dog is actually working for the verbal marker that leads to the food.

So once this is established, weaning the dog from the food is simple. Continue training the command but leave out the food reward every once in a while. And then increase the times that there is no food reward. But every once in a while you throw in a food reward. This maintains the dog's connection of praise = food.

Pavlov made this discovery a long, long time ago. Before feeding a dog he would ring the bell, and he noticed that over time the dog salivated upon hearing the bell (not upon presentation of the food). The dog began to associate the bell as food. Then Pavlov continued to experiment by ringin the bell and not presenting food. The dog continued to salivate even without the food reward. OVer time, if the food never was presented, the dog would eventually quit associating the bell with food. But if food was presented every once in a while, the dog would continue to respond to the bell as food.

This means the dog will continue to perform in the absence of food, even when the food reward is presented infrequently.

So now, it boils down to what motivates a dog more, food or praise. Assuming that praise has not been conditioned with food, then I would say food. Let me explain what I mena by saying "praise conditioned with food". If you condirtion the dog by saying "good boy!" and then feeding him, you are conditioning the dog to accept praise as food. If you then train the dog using "good boy", although you are not using food directly you are using it indrectly because the dog has been conditioned that praise is food. By the strictest sense, that is still trainign with food.

So assuming that a dog has not been conditioned in that manner, then I would say hands down food is the higher motivator. I know we all like to think that our dog's are bonded to us and that our love is more important to them than food. But honestly, what would happen if you skipped your dog's next meal and then put his bowl down with food and tried to love him? Would he go for the food or stay with you to be loved? Skip the next 10 meals, and repeat (hypothetically -- please don't starve your dog). The point is that you will reach a point where the dog will prefer the food over your love. That means food is a little hihger on the dog's basic hierarchy of needs. Like it or not, that is a fact.

So the bottom line is that food is a higher motivator to the dog. Yes, you can get results without using food. I don't argue that. But if you are looking for optimum results, food is the winner hands down.

Trainers are probably going to chime in and argue me on this point -- but the trainers that say they get optimum results without using food are probably using food indirectly, i.e. by conditioning the dog to associate the praise with food. That is different, and technically that is still training with food -- although indirectly.

So now examine the effectiveness of training directly with food, versus indirectly. Theoretically, if the dog is conditioned to associate praise with food, he will perform nearly identically as the dog that is getting a direct food reward. So once the dog knows the command, he will perform equally well for either food reward or praise (that has been asociated to food).

But, for the indirect food training methods, how do you get to the point that the dog understands the command without a food lure? How do you teach the dog what "sit" means?

Do you lure with food? If so, then you are trainign with food. Do you push the dog's rump down, pull up on a leash? This is forceful and will work contrary to the training effort.

The only way I can possibly think of to initially teach the dog to sit, without force or a food reward, would be to keep repeating the command while waiting for him to do it naturally. That could take a while. I can teach any dog to comprehend "sit" in about 30-90 seconds using a food lure. That is efficient for me, and it is best for the dog -- the quicker he understands the less frustrated he will get.

So I personally cannot be convinced that there is a more effecitve way of trainign than to speak directly in the language of the dog and by tapping the dog's most fundamental desire -- food.

Now, to play devil's advocate, I can see some pro's to a trainer using praise only. In a class setting, 10 puppies and 10 owners with food is not a good learning environment. It is hard enough to keep a puppy's attention, but keeping it when there is food in the room makes it more difficult. Food in the training will also increase the chances of bathroom accidents. Lastly, food in the classroom could spark aggression between dogs.

I would advise you to continue with the trainer as she is highly recommended. More than likley she will tell you to associate praise with food at home. If not, do it anyway. Go home and say "Good Boy!" and then present a treat. It won't hurt the training effort.

But if the trainer has you physically force the dog into sit, down, etc. then I would ask the question on why food lures can't be used, and explain that you prefer non-physical coercive methods. If the trainer does not respect your right to not yank and pull your dog, then find one who does. But if she comes that highly recommended, you may want to give her some slack and try her methods.

It all depends on what your personal viewpoint is toward physical vs non-physical methods. If you sat "Sit" and lightly put pressure on the dog's behind to motivate him to sit, that is probably not harmful. If that is how she teaches the sit, and you are OK with that, then go for it.

If she teaches sit in that manner, then she probably teaches down by putting the dog in a sit, and then saying "down" and carefully sweeping his front legs out from under him and lowering his front into a down position. That is probably OK too, but if you don't want to put a hand on your dog at all then you don't have to -- there is the food lure method.

But if she is teaching sit and down by yanking on the leash, I would look elsewhere. No matter how lightly it is done, it is still a form of aversive training, and that is not appropriate on a pup. Putting pressure on a dog to coerce it into follwing a command is aversive because it creates discomfort for the dog, and the dog stops that discomfort by following the command. Even if outright "pain" isn't used, it is still discomfort and that is aversive. The training motivator is "if you want this discomfort removed, do what I say". Alternatively, a food lure motivates the dog in a positive way.

The bottom line is it is up to you to decide how you want your dog trained. If you approve of her methods, and her methods seem to be a fit for your ultimate goals in training then that is great.

But beyond approval of the methods, you do have to think about what your ultimate goals are in training. If you are just training obedience for better household management of your pet, then any method will suit that goal. But if you would like someday to compete or obtain certifications on your dog, then you need to consider what method would be optimal for you.

[skeeter]

TCarlisle

Thank you for the information...........I will keep trying....

Faye

[Lola's Grrl]

Well, I've decided to go with the highly recommended praise-based trainer after all. I'm not using treats to motivate Lola at the moment, only because she doesn't respond to treats. Lola is a very smart, loving, and independently minded little girl, so I'm hoping this training will do the trick. The first night of training is next Wednesday, so I'll let you all know how it went.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Monica And Lola