Go Back   Boxer Board > BOXER HEALTH FORUMS > Dog Health issues and questions

Dog Health issues and questions Ask about cancer, mange, heart troubles...


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

 
  #13  
Old 29th January 2001, 02:28 PM
kt kt is offline
Boxer Buddy
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: buckinghamshire UK
Posts: 51
Hi Julie -

have you had any tests done to check if you dog has an immune problem? if not then how do you know if they have !

I only know about Charlie's because he got meningitis very serious and this took over 2 months to diagnosis because in the early stages it doesn't show up on the test which is a spinal tap and the fluid is tested.

I really think that before you do anything, if you think your dogs immune system is not right then find out - if you don't treat the mange and it does get worse you poor little dog will be bald sore and very unhappy

I agree that treating the dog straight away is not always a good idea.

Why are you using a cattle dip? and why has your vet recommended this? I know that there are some really good Dog dips like Aludex which I used on Charlie - yes you have to be careful with it but it is no way as horrific as the stuff you talked about - but saying that I haven't done any research about Aludex but I will now

good luck with which ever type of treatment you decide to do

kt
__________________
KT
owned by a boxer called
Charlie
3 years old
Sponsored Links

 
  #14  
Old 30th January 2001, 05:46 AM
Alisha Mobley's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ellettsville, Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,971
I'm pretty sure Mioban dips are what the vet used to treat Sheeba. I didn't think 3 times was a whole lot considering she had this for about 2-3 months before any treatment was started. The first vet she was seeing told me it was allergies and was giving me a cream to put on it. The cream did help with the itching which lead to the scabs healing but her hair wasn't coming back. In fact the bald spot was slowly getting larger. After the second vet did the skin scraping to determine it was mange she told me that Sheeba would have to be dipped to get rid of the mites. The dips were very helpful and Sheeba's hair is just slightly thinner in the old spot if you look closely. I'm sure in time it will be completely back to normal. In someones post they said something about not handleing the dog for a few days after being dipped. I'm not sure if they were talking about the Mioban dips or not but the vet never said anything like this to me. When I went to pick her up each time they were petting her and told me they had took her out and walked her before I got there so I assume they handled her then also. Each time her fur felt oily and looked more shiny for a few days but I thought it made her fur look healthier. I guess I'm not sure why some think the dips are so bad. Sheeba never act like anything when I went to pick her up or when I would drop her off. I haven't researched this so I don't know much about it, only my own experience (which in my opinion was a good one). I'm just happy she no longer has a bald, itchy spot with sores.
__________________
Alisha

 
  #15  
Old 30th January 2001, 06:12 AM
Boxer Pal
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 23
Alisha

I feel the same way, when I went to pick Dakota up for the first time, the vet said nothing about not handling her. I thought she looked great her coat was shiny and she smelled good. I can not imagine not treating your dog for this. Dakota has it everywhere and spreading.

 
  #16  
Old 30th January 2001, 06:29 AM
Alisha Mobley's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ellettsville, Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,971
Joshua

Does Dakota's spots look better already? I noticed with Sheeba after her first dip the spot didn't look at all dry any more and the skin looked very healthy and shiny. I was very pleased with the results. Hopefully Dakota's will go as well as Sheeba's. If so then the itching part should be over and the spots should have stopped spreading. Sheeba scratched all the time until the first vet gave me the cream. Luckily that helped with the itching but she still scratched some. Without the dips she would have never gotten better.

I understand what some are saying and allowing the dog to heal itself before starting treatment. I feel the same way but if it is getting worse and the balding is spreading then I think treatment is the only answer. I hate giving my dogs (or my kids) any type of meds but sometimes it can't be avoided.

Good Luck with Dakota and keep us updated on her progress.

 
  #17  
Old 30th January 2001, 07:58 AM
Julie Davis's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,315
Quote:
Originally posted by Alisha Mobley
I'm pretty sure Mioban dips are what the vet used to treat Sheeba. I didn't think 3 times was a whole lot considering she had this for about 2-3 months before any treatment was started. . I haven't researched this so I don't know much about it, only my own experience (which in my opinion was a good one). I'm just happy she no longer has a bald, itchy spot with sores.
Alisha,
Boomer went through the exact same thing. And, like you, I don't think three dips was excessive. A lot of these people who suggest we "wait it out" have never seen their dog start to lose all their hair. I wish I could remember the web site, but one of the boxer rescue sites had a picture of a boxer with untreated mange, and I wish everyone could see what that poor dog looked like with no treatment.
Julie
__________________
Boomer, flashy fawn, 2/19/00, natural ears, docked tail and Baxter the terrible tabby, 3/96

 
  #18  
Old 30th January 2001, 08:05 AM
JulieM's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: My own little world....
Posts: 6,444
Quote:
have you had any tests done to check if you dog has an immune problem? if not then how do you know if they have !
I'm not sure if you're addressing this to me or to the other Julie - one of my dogs has a slightly depressed immune system (at this point we are attributing it to stress), evidenced by some skin problems. We have adjusted his diet and tried to reduce some of the stress in our house, and his skin is improving. No toxins necessary

Quote:
Why are you using a cattle dip? and why has your vet recommended this?
I am not using a cattle dip (well, I'm not using anything as I don't have a demodex problem, but I'm not suggesting using a cattle dip). I am suggesting using Ivermectin, which, as I said before is a (DOG) heartworm preventative. I only said that it is widely used in cattle. Ivermectin is an anthelmintic (dewormer), microfilaricide (kills immature heartworms), *and* a miticide (kills mites). Ivermectin in the treatment of demodectic mange is given orally, not as a dip.

This page:
http://www.peteducation.com/pharmacy/ivermectin.htm
has information on ivermectin - compare it to the information on amitraz. Big difference!

Quote:
I know that there are some really good Dog dips like Aludex which I used on Charlie - yes you have to be careful with it but it is no way as horrific as the stuff you talked about
This is the stuff you wrote this about?

Quote:
you have to wear protective clothing and gloves and the smell is horrible - and you can't touch your dog until they are completely dry, but after many baths and sulks it worked - unfortunately for Charlie it was the start of more serious immune problems.............
Sounds pretty horrific to me. Aludex *is* Mitaban - same active ingredient (amitraz), just a different brand name.

By the way, a dog with a few spots of demodex which progresses to him being "bald all over his back and face and legs,tummy" is a *very* good indicator of a depressed immune system.

Quote:
In someones post they said something about not handleing the dog for a few days after being dipped. I'm not sure if they were talking about the Mioban dips or not but the vet never said anything like this to me.
Yes, it was Mitaban (or any amitraz-based dips) and I gave you the link to that information, at the Drs. Foster & Smith website (peteducation.com). Considering the fact that you are supposed to seek medical attention if you get amitraz on your skin or if you inhale it, it's not surprising that the recommendation is to avoid touching the dog. They also advise that you should not stress the dog for 24 hours after application, that persons or dogs who are diabetic or on other MAOI medications should not be exposed to amitraz, and that amitraz is NOT RECOMMENDED for treatment of localized demodectic mange.

I would imagine, although it's only conjecture, that they got these warnings from manufacturer's labels. Next time you're at the vet, ask to see the bottle of Mitaban, and let me know what it says.

Quote:
I guess I'm not sure why some think the dips are so bad.
I'll refer you back to my earlier post listing the precautions for handling amitraz. Also, more from Drs. F&S:

"Amitraz in the dip form can be quite toxic....May see sedative effect for 24-72 hours after the dip. The animal may develop dry skin and haircoat. With the dip, may also see decreased body temperature, high blood sugar levels, seizures, or death."

In comparison to their information on ivermectin:

"Rarely see side effects....May see staggering, vomiting, diarrhea, depression, or dilated pupils in dogs....Considered to be safe to use during pregnancy and nursing."

Obviously, both medications can have serious side effects - but I'd rather have vomiting and diarrhea than seizures and death!

And, just for the record, I DID NOT SAY don't treat a dog with Generalized demodectic mange. I did say, in the case of *Localized* demodex, the dog should be given a chance to heal itself. A dog with one spot the size of a 1/2 dollar does NOT have Generalized demodectic mange. If Localized mange progresses to Generalized, or if the Localized mange does not clear up after 6-8 weeks, then YES, treat the dog. At this point you should also be addressing the immune system.

Here's some information on holistic medicine (Drs. F&S again) - perhaps this will explain it better than I have:

Quote:
The philosophy of holistic veterinarians is to look at all aspects of the animal, and be open to using a variety of treatments. Holistic veterinarians often concentrate on nutrition and diet, the environment and lifestyle of the animal, and psychologic state of the animal in the treatment and prevention of disease. Communication between the animal, owner and veterinarian are emphasized.

Holistic veterinarians use conventional and alternative therapies on a case-by-case basis. They recognize that the most modern veterinary techniques such as ultrasound, sophisticated laboratory tests, and surgical procedures are necessary in caring for an animal. Similarly they believe alternative medicine modalities such as herbal medicine, chiropractic and others play a significant role as well.
Amazing how an (I thought) innocent comment could cause such controversy!!

Julie

 
  #19  
Old 30th January 2001, 08:19 AM
JulieM's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: My own little world....
Posts: 6,444
Quote:
A lot of these people who suggest we "wait it out" have never seen their dog start to lose all their hair.
Yes, I have, but it wasn't caused by demodex. And it was tragic to watch, but we got the problem cleared up without any extreme - or chemical - measures (it was my bitch post-whelping - a combination of seasonal allergies, hormones and stress).

Quote:
I wish I could remember the web site, but one of the boxer rescue sites had a picture of a boxer with untreated mange, and I wish everyone could see what that poor dog looked like with no treatment.
These dogs have Generalized mange. From vetinfo.com:

Quote:
Localized demodectic mange is thought to occur due to transient stress or a decrease in local immune function at the affected sites. Generalized demodectic mange is thought to be due to a specific deficiency in T-cells that suppress these mites.
There was a whole litter with Generalized demodectic mange in Boxer rescue at one point. I'm sure they (rightly) treated these puppies - although it must have been with ivermectin, since amitraz has not been deemed safe for dogs under 4 months of age. I will say, again, that treatment is sometimes needed. I just feel that too many vets are seeing Localized demodex that the dog has had for 2 days, and dipping without a second thought. That bothers me - it's kind of like undergoing surgery to remove a splinter.

Julie

 
  #20  
Old 30th January 2001, 08:29 AM
Alisha Mobley's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ellettsville, Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,971
Julie

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JulieM
Quote:

And, just for the record, I DID NOT SAY don't treat a dog with Generalized demodectic mange. I did say, in the case of *Localized* demodex, the dog should be given a chance to heal itself. A dog with one spot the size of a 1/2 dollar does NOT have Generalized demodectic mange. If Localized mange progresses to Generalized, or if the Localized mange does not clear up after 6-8 weeks, then YES, treat the dog. At this point you should also be addressing the immune system.


Julie
Sheeba's mange started out about the size of a quarter and ended up the size of a 1/2 dollar or slighty larger. It was about 2-3 months before the dips were started. This is how long it took for the spot to get the size it did. Sheeba is my first dog that has ever had this and I don't know if going from quarter size to 1/2 dollar size in 2-3 months would be considered spreading fast or not. Since it was still there after 6-8 weeks would you suggest her immune system to be the problem? She was about 6 months old and was in the process of getting over kennel cough when the balding first started. The kennel cough was completely gone and cleared up within a week or so after the balding started. She is to be used for breeding later in the future and if she might have an immune system problem I want to know before breeding her. Do you know how this is checked?

When I get a chance I will check out the web site you posted about the dips and I will ask my vet about them also. Even though Sheeba hasn't been dipped for about 2 months or so I still would like my vet to give me her opinion and the facts she is aware of. If Sheeba's immune system is the problem then it's possible the mange will return. Hopefully not but I want to be better armed with info just in case.


 
  #21  
Old 30th January 2001, 10:02 AM
JulieM's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: My own little world....
Posts: 6,444
I would think if there was a real problem with Sheeba's immune system, the mange would have spread much more than it did. It's likely that if you had addressed her immune system at the time - changing to a natural diet, or at least supplementing with Vitamin C, echinacea, or some of the other immune boosters, the spot would have cleared up on it's own.

Also, keep in mind that a dog's immune system is not mature until 12-18 months of age. If she was only six months when it started, she was still dealing with an immature immune system.

Did her kennel cough go away on it's own, or did you treat it?

Did your vet have you try any topical treatments before dipping? Goodwinol ointment is supposed to be very good at clearing up Localized demodex. It is also a chemical (rotenone), has serious consequences in the case of an overdose, but the only side effect that Drs. F&S lists are skin irritation. Seems to be much safer than Mitaban, in any case - and indicated for treatment of Localized demodex.

As far as tests for immune function - there are tests that can be done for humans (see http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/green/immune2.html) - I'd imagine they can be done for dogs, too. The biggest immune system problem in Boxers effects they thyroid, which is why a *full* thyroid panel (not the one a vet typically does) is recommended before breeding.

Another indication of whether the immune problem is genetic is to find out about her littermates - if they all had problems with demodex, it's possible that there's something going on.

Julie

 
  #22  
Old 30th January 2001, 10:40 AM
Alisha Mobley's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ellettsville, Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,971
Quote:
Originally posted by JulieM

Did her kennel cough go away on it's own, or did you treat it?
It was treated. She was the last of my 3 to catch it. Tyson had it first and his was pretty bad before he was treated. He was my first dog that had this and I thought he had some kind of a dog cold or maybe a scratchy throat. After he started the meds I noticed Pru starting to cough. I waited for about a week before taking her to the vet to see if maybe it would clear on it's own (I was always told the only way to get rid of kennel cough is with meds but was hoping she wouldn't need them). Her cough wasn't as bad as Tyson's but was getting worse. When Sheeba started coughing I didn't wait. I figured her's would just keep getting worse also.


Quote:
Originally posted by JulieM

Did your vet have you try any topical treatments before dipping? Goodwinol ointment is supposed to be very good at clearing up Localized demodex. It is also a chemical (rotenone), has serious consequences in the case of an overdose, but the only side effect that Drs. F&S lists are skin irritation. Seems to be much safer than Mitaban, in any case - and indicated for treatment of Localized demodex.

The only thing that was used on her before the dips was some kind of a goopy green stuff that felt like vasoline. But this was used at first when the first vet thought it was allergies. This did help with the itching. The rawness and sores healed from using this but her hair wasn't coming back and she did still scratch some what.

Quote:
Originally posted by JulieM

As far as tests for immune function - there are tests that can be done for humans (see http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/green/immune2.html) - I'd imagine they can be done for dogs, too. The biggest immune system problem in Boxers effects they thyroid, which is why a *full* thyroid panel (not the one a vet typically does) is recommended before breeding.

I will ask the vet about the immune system tests to see if it can be done on dogs. I do plan to have her thyroid tested but was waiting for her to turn a year old for OFA purposes. She was 1 on the 17th of this month so her thyroid should be able to be tested with no problem. If she is able to be certified with OFA this test will be repeated yearly.

Quote:
Originally posted by JulieM

Another indication of whether the immune problem is genetic is to find out about her littermates - if they all had problems with demodex, it's possible that there's something going on.

Julie
Sheeba was one of two in her litter. Her litter was also the first born to her mother. Her father had been bred before but as far as the breeder knew there had never been a problem with any of his pups and mange. Sheeba's mother or father had never had this problem either. I haven't talked to the breeder since I told them about the mange so I don't know if the male from the litter has had this problem. I will find out the next time I talk to them.

Thanks for all the info. When Sheeba goes to her next vet visit I will ask for the vets thoughts on all this.

[Edited by Alisha Mobley on 01-30-2001 at 06:44 PM]

 
  #23  
Old 30th January 2001, 11:59 AM
JulieM's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: My own little world....
Posts: 6,444
Quote:
It was treated. She was the last of my 3 to catch it.
Just wondered - if she had overcome it herself, it would be an indication of good immune functin. Kennel cough is another thing that sometimes isn't treated - like human coughs, it typically goes away on it's own. There are things to give to relieve the symptoms, which don't bury them. (Like taking a cough drop - it doesn't do anything for your cough, but it makes your throat feel much better!) The last bout of kennel cough we had, only one of our dogs got it. We had 9 at the time - 5 of them were 6 week old puppies - it was the 12 month old who had it, and it went away in 5-6 days. Of course, the time before that all 3 dogs that we had at the time got it, and it took a couple of weeks to clear up, even with antibiotics (this was before I started learning about holistic methods). You just never can tell with kennel cough!

Quote:
The only thing that was used on her before the dips was some kind of a goopy green stuff that felt like vasoline. But this was used at first when the first vet thought it was allergies. This did help with the itching. The rawness and sores healed from using this but her hair wasn't coming back and she did still scratch some what.
Demodex itself typicallly does not itch - it's the secondary skin problems that cause the itching. So the goop probably cleared up the secondary problems somewhat, but didn't affect the demodex at all.

Quote:
I will ask the vet about the immune system tests to see if it can be done on dogs. I do plan to have her thyroid tested but was waiting for her to turn a year old for OFA purposes. She was 1 on the 17th of this month so her thyroid should be able to be tested with no problem. If she is able to be certified with OFA this test will be repeated yearly.
Here's some information on the various thyroid tests and which ones you should/should not use.

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-...echThyroid.htm

The thyroid tests you should be getting are T3,T4,Free T3,
Free T4 by dialysis, TSH and autoantibody for T3 & T4. I'd recommend Dr. Jean Dodds' Hemopet for running the tests - she uses the information in her research so her prices are reasonable (something like $30 for the full panel), and then she sends the information on to MSU (which is one of the approved labs for OFA). This is Dr. Dodds' contact information:

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
Hemopet
17672A Cowan Ave., Ste. 300
Irvine, CA 92614
(949) 252-8455
FAX (949) 252-0224


Julie

 
  #24  
Old 30th January 2001, 12:47 PM
Alisha Mobley's Avatar
Boxer Insane
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ellettsville, Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,971
I just had Pru and Tyson's thyroid tests done about 3 months ago. My vet that handles most of the testing for me just took the blood samples then sent them to their lab. Either of us knew at the time that the lab they used was not OFA approved. The test was quite costly and I couldn't get OFA certificates because of the lab we used. My vet did some research after that and now has a list of OFA approved labs (I think there are only 6 but we agreed to use the one in Michigan). I figured it wasn't too much of a big deal I couldn't get cetificates since Pru isn't ready to be bred anyway and will need to be retested again in about 9 months. The tests you mentioned were the ones done on both Tyson and Pru. Pru's results came back normal but Tyson's were a little low. I will have him retested also in 9 months and see were he stands. I'm hoping for good results.

Do you know if low thyroid is always hereditary or not? I had read that in some cases thyroid disfunction is not hereditary. If this is true how do you know if it is hereditary or not? If a dogs thyroid test results are the same every year even though they are slightyly low or high what would that mean? Since Tyson's results were low shouldn't they keep getting lower every year? Sorry about all the questions but I have read everything on the internet I can find about this and it doesn't really answer my questions.

[Edited by Alisha Mobley on 01-30-2001 at 08:59 PM]