Breeders in Classifieds

[SammynDqtz]

Originally Posted by Grimmja

i'm getting it, i was just trying to stay optimistic and believe that not everyone in the paper was bad for advertising their dogs there--an attitude that's hard to let go, but i do see your point.

my opinions are new, i'm a new dog owner, i'm willing to stretch a little, thanks for the opportunity.

I just wanted to say what a great attitude you have, it is great to see you are open and wanting to learn. This place is just over flowing with fantastic information (the mods esp. are a great source, Julie and the others have helped me a lot too)... I'm sure you'll soak it right in.

[Grimmja]

"an ad to sell puppies in a newspaper means someone had a litter without alot of planning. They created more puppies for which they did not have homes lined up for at least somewhat in advance."

why does this have to be the case? it seems to me a lot of people are ASSUMING the worst about the majority of people advertising in the paper. i've learned the lesson of assuming teh hard way several times...it ain't the best method of judging. there are a lot of horror stories yes, but there are a lot of success stories. i think it could be risky to let the bad outwiegh the good and therefore miss out on many perfect little puppies' additions to our families. if you're looking for showing, or for absolute perfection, breeders are the way to go. if you're just the average wanna be a dog owner, then a healthy dog, a reasonable price, responsible owners. sound dispositions, great family additions CAN be found in the classifieds. and while i see your point against byb's, i would still advertise to go ahead with the classifieds as long as you're picky about who you choose.

also i remember hearing someone say humane societies are like a second chance for the dogs, well i think with the attitude against byb's, then buying a dog/puppy from the classifieds is like a second chance for them because they didn't choose to enter the world in "such irresponsible conditions." just a thought. if you're in it for the animals' lives, then why not? perfectly fine lives and great familiy additions can be found in teh classifieds.

i think i agree with both sides. is that possible? probably not, but that's where i am right now...

[VTbxrFan]

Originally Posted by tanya&jazz

Not everyone that advertizes in the paper are in it for the money.

You are absolutely right, but that doesn't make them responsible. Not all BYBs are in it for money, either, but that still doens't make it ok for them to breed. I think the scenario you have in your head is exactly the one that was hardest for me to see the problem with - kind, decent people who love their dogs, treat them well, and breed - maybe even just a litter or two - because they think it will be a neat experience since they love boxers so much. They try to carefully screen homes, and in the end, they sell the pups for a price that allows them to "break even" rather than make a profit. It was really hard for me to understand why this was bad until I started learning about health issues that are genetic but don't show up until later - so the "healthy" parents end up with issues a few years after the breeding that are passed on to the puppies...who in turn are passing them on to more puppies. To really be able to say a puppy comes from healthy lines, you need more than one generation and you need health testing that can identify problems before symptoms show up. And as a side note, these breeders can sell their dogs for a lower price than reputable breeders because they aren't doing health testing or showing, which makes it much easier for them to break even by selling pups for $300 dollars.

But it's not just a health issue. Afterall, even the very best breeders can't promise lifelong good health. The other issue is breeding to improve the breed, and these well-intentioned families who are breeding for "fun" (or hobby or whatever word you want to use that implies something other than for profit) simply do not have the knowledge and experience to breed for improvement. The result of that is boxers that look less and less like the breed standard. You might think that's not a problem if you don't intend to show, but consider the fact that if that type of breeding continues, in 25 years, the boxer we know and love today won't exist because it will have changed so much. In my state, where BYB's run rampant, I see more purebred boxers that actually look like mixes than those that are good representatives of the breed because the breeding practices are so bad. And it's not just the looks that change with bad breeding - it's the personalities.

Originally Posted by tanya&jazz

I know LOTS of people that have got their pups from the paper. If health concerns are your reason for not going this route then stay away from the rescue because that is a REAL crap shoot.
I do not want puppy mills supported.

You are absolutely right - if a healthy dog is the number one priority for a person, the only way to go is a reputable breeder who knows the pup's line for several generations. But I do want to make one point very clear - it's a crap shoot getting a pup from rescue/shelter just like it is if you get a pup from a less than responsible breeder, but there is a very important difference - who gets the money. If you buy a puppy from an irresponsible breeder, you are encouraging that practice to continue, which means you are directly supporting irresponsible breeding habits that will lead to the demise of the breed. Even the BYBs who aren't in it for money will think twice if they can't get any money at all for the pups because they are putting money into them. (The neat experience of having one litter of puppies becomes a lot less fun if it puts you hundreds of dollars in the hole.) If they lose money instead of breaking even (or making a profit), the cycle will start to break down. When you adopt a dog from a rescue or shelter, you usually do pay an adoption fee, but that fee is not supporting irresponsible practices - it's treating dogs that need health care and it's paying for spays/neuters to break the cycle of homeless pets.

[rog1006]

Originally Posted by Polly Allen

Just recently purchase our 3rd from a classified ad.

But now after reading this thread you inderstand the IMPORTANCE of not buying from a back yard breeder, right? Irresponsible "breeders" lead to overpopulation, genetic problems with dogs, etc. By supporting them, you are giving them reasons to keep doing what they're doing...which makes you a contributor to the problem. Not knowing is one thing, but knowingly buying a dog from a back yard breeder when you know the cause and effect of it, is sabatoging the good that the rest of us are trying to do to save this breed.

Originally Posted by tanya&jazz

I know LOTS of people that have got their pups from the paper. If health concerns are your reason for not going this route then stay away from the rescue because that is a REAL crap shoot.

This just goes to show how little you know about Rescue. Reputable rescue organizations give complete physicals, blood tests, fecals, heartworm treatments, (for us in AZ Valley Fever testing), surgeries, etc. and disclose EVERYTHING to the potential adoptor so they know EXACTLY what they are getting when they adopt. This is much more information than someone gets when buying a puppy or dog from some listing in the paper from a Back Yard Breeder. Also, for your information, MOST OF THE DOGS IN RESCUE have come from families who bought the puppies from back yard breeders. Then we have to fix them (medically and emotionally) and desperately try to find them a good home. So THANK YOU for making the point crystal clear about the damage done by those that support BACK YARD BREEDING.

Christine
Boxer Luv Rescue

[Grimmja]

i hope i'm not coming across as the anti-christ in my postings supporting byb's...i truly believe the learning process involves asking those questions that you have and examining the other side from the answers you receive. for me, the questions i've asked have aided in my opinion thinking dogs in classifieds are fine...and the answers i have received have helped me see otherwise. i'm beginning to see the detrimental effects such irresponsibility can foster. i think this is a great dialogue, thank you for the opportunity to grow.

[leighann]

Maybe you should place an ad for a boxer wanted and screen the people yourself. that is what i did and here is my story. i don't know what you would call the man i got mine from. i was looking for a boxer for months and months. All of the ads in the paper that i found seemed like they just didn't fit my needs. Maybe mostly money really, the ads all said puppies ready to go, and only so many left. i felt desperate, i wanted one so bad, i placed applications on rescues, and never heard anything from anyone. Maybe because i have a 5 year old son, or that my yard wasn't fenced in, but anyhow I posted an ad on my local isp that i was looking for a boxer. I got a couple responses, but one stuck out, a guy that had 2 boxers, living in the house with him, and the puppies were just born. He would send pics every week and we wrote each other over and over. Still do. anyhow he did the testing, health cert., and i got to know him. He let me pic out my pup from more than what was just left, i let him know i was serious, and i think i was the first to pick. but anyhow what i wanted to say was after i heard from him, i looked and looked and he never posted any for sale ads. he came to me. the dogs lived in the house with him, his kids, and cats.
needless to say, my furbaby was diagnosed with having only 1 testicle, but my vet assured me that if it was hereditary, it could have been on the mothers side, and he never knew. that it is very hard for the vet to find this before he came home because they are the size of a bebe. so i can't be mad, things happen. But i know that he loves his boxers, and i love mine and sometimes you have to deal with what life deals you health wise. so to my question, did i purchase from a byb, or rep breeder?

[adeinert]

[QUOTE=tanya&jazz]Not everyone that advertizes in the paper are in it for the money.
I know LOTS of people that have got their pups from the paper. If health concerns are your reason for not going this route then stay away from the rescue because that is a REAL crap shoot.
I do not want puppy mills supported. I got my first boxer from a family that bred their girl one time to a friends male. Lucky for me they were both good examples of the breed. QUOTE]

I see your pup was one of the BYB dogs that were lucky.
But I will again plead with people not to support BYB's such as the one you got your boxer from. They are not bettering our breed. Why support the very people who are tearing down our breed and filling our shelters with homeless boxers who are at risk to be PTS. There is a very true list of reasons BYB's give to breed on a boxerworld page. They are all selfish or ignorant reasons, none of which put the boxers or the breed first.

Although you do not seem very supportive or knowledgeable about rescue, adopters will know more about the boxer they adopt. Also, BYB's and those who advertise in papers don't health test. Some of our rescued boxers come from breeders who do. The other difference is that rescues are run by people who support the breed, the health of boxers, and breed standards. Our rescues would not even be necessary if only reputable breeders bred. But there are too many selfish people breeding their pets for whatever whim and they are not knowledgeable or care enough to realize that they are actually doing more harm than good.

If everyone that loved the breed would stop supporting BYB's and puppy mills, we would do our beloved breed a huge service.

P.S.
Leighann, sounds like you found a byb just from what you said. A health certificate is the basic vet clearance puppies must have by law. I took in a puppy for rescue with a health certif, it's basically a visual checkout. The poor pup was actually pretty sick. It is not the health testing on the parents that provides specific information.

Ashlie

[SammynDqtz]

It is true... you CAN find healthy dogs from ''breeders'' in the paper... but more often not. SO, why ever take a chance!?? Go through a reputable breeder and the chances of loosing your baby to a heart breaking disease will be much less. Even though the ''breeders'' in the paper may LOVE their dogs, they are not bettering our breed by just sticking any two sweet, good looking, healthy looking dogs together.

It's much different getting a dog from rescue. MOST that are in there are from these ''breeders''.

By saving a dog in rescue, you will not be supporting unwanted dogs.
If you go through one of the ''breeders'', they will be encouraged to breed again to make another quick buck. If we don't purchase from them, they will think twice about breeding again, cause they won't be getting what they wanted out of it.... the dough. They'll quickly change their minds about being ''breeders''.

[leighann]

okay, i guess i did and that does make sense, but what about the people like him love their boxers and don't breed them every year. I still don't see him as one of these bad bad byb's. he truely loves his dogs. another question i had was , and i know this is prob way off of the subject. Can you really get a dog checked for epilepsy?? And is this normal genetic disorder for a dog?

the reason for my question is that 2 years ago my son was diagnosed with epilepsy and the doctors said that sometimes it just comes out in puebirty?(sp). I know dogs and kids are different, but the illness is still the same right? I was just wondering why the doctors didn't know that he will get this. And why is it wrong for a dog to get it? I mean with meds it could live a normal life right? I guess I am a little edgy on the epilepsy part for the fact that if we humans knew it ran in our family and made sure that we got ourselves fixed so that we didn't pass it on, or someone made us do this? I know that my son doesn't like the fact that he got this for we went through a great ordeal, but as long as he takes his meds, he is fine.

[leighann]

oh, ps. i forgot to mention, i am not being a smarta$$, i am just curious. and even if he is from a byb, i still love him bunches. sometimes i read posts that i have wrote and it sounds like i am starting trouble and it is not that way. just wanted to let you guys know.

I did rescue a dog,boxer, that is how i got attached to the breed. He was on my local isp classifieds for sale. 2 years old. when i called the guy he told me that he bought it for his kids and now they left for college and he was left behind. he kept trying to kill the neighbors sheep and he couldn't keep him anymore. if i would come get him, now, i could have him for free. papers and all. so i did. we loved him as soon as we saw him. took him home for the weekend, for a trial run, the guy said that if it didn't work out because of my cat that he would take him back. so we did. needless to say we spent all weekend chasing the dog away from my cat, so he wouldn't kill her, and when we took him with us we spent the time chasing him after he jumped out of the window at the petstore parking lot. not so bad, but we knew him and the cat wouldn't work so he went home. I decided to get a puppy, so that he could grow up around it and know not to mess with it hurtfully. so here we are, and it worked. it is the funniest thing i have ever seen, my new boxer tries to box the cat ,and she boxes back, although she isn't playing. she makes him keep his distance, and he learned. but now he started to mount, and boy is this funny. he is just tall enough that he can stand on top of her, and he lays his head on hers and tries to go to town. thank goodness it isn't foreal. And thank goodness that she is fixed and doesn't go into heat, i don't know what i would do then, but i just thought it is funny.

I know rescues are the way to go, but sometimes you have to be a little leary on their personality and wonder what they would do in your house in your situation. I have a house full of loud, vibrant kids and a cat, and a highway close by, that i just had to have a puppy that would grow up to know what goes on and be able to adjust, and if something would happen, like an attack or bite on the kids, they are still bigger than him and could get him off, or that it wouldn't give much damage. I know that there are bad byb's out there. I was on a website last night called pennsylvania cruelty lancaster kennels, something like that. which was horrible, and i know i will never buy from a petstore, or byb. well i guess the byb, i should say never again.

[leighann]

oh, okay, i thought i was starting to make people mad and starting an argument.
I just want everyone to know I am not here to start trouble.

[rog1006]

Originally Posted by tanya&jazz

I am NOT again I am NOT against adoption but if health and longevity of life is the priority the paper is a better risk. At least you have the dog on the right track from puppyhood.

OK, I can see what you're saying "risky" wise--a reputable breeder with miles of health testing is the absolute best way to have the *best* chance of having a healthy puppy/dog. I absolutely agree with you 100%.

My opinion then would be that to support someone from the paper (who is obviously not a reputable breeder) is risky yes, but more importantly, it's contributing to the overall problem and hurting the boxer breed in itself. Rescuing a boxer is also risky, but you're not supporting the BYB's---on the contrary, you're then actually HELPING SOLVE the problem rather than contributing to it.

JMHO

Christine
Boxer Luv Rescue