Questionable breeder or is this okay?

CharlyFarly · #1 06-30-2007, 11:22 PM

We think we have a deal breaker but we want to see what y'all thought. We understand its common to not see the puppies until after 4 weeks to avoid disease but they won't let us see the female or the kennel at all.

The breeder states:
We are no longer open for public viewing. For years we allowed visitors to come see the puppies and the parents. A few years ago someone carried in a mite that spread through the kennel. We had a tough time getting rid of it. Once it was gone we agreed with our veterinarian’s decision to close our kennel to the public to ensure our puppies have had zero exposure to any type of pathogen or parasite. Thus allowing us to produce very healthy animals. Our kennel is inspected and approved by AKC

Is this okay or does this sound off? Also - Does AKC inspect kennels?
Thanks in advance for any advice.

StormKatz · #2 07-01-2007, 04:21 AM

I don't nessesarily see this as a deal breaker. Granted I totally understand wanting to see where your pup has been raised, & how the animals are cared for but...... given the circumstances (If a mite was in fact brought into their kennel) I can understand them not wanting to allow people into their home.

I have a good friend that breeds cats, she doesn't allow people wanting to purchase kittens into her home, simply because she doesn't know these people. She offers her kittens threw her website, & the local papers, screens potencial buyers via, e-mail & the phone, & meets them at her vets office on the day the kitten is ready to go. She often looses sales because she won't let the people come to her home, but the peace of mind is worth more to her than the sale, & honestly I totally see her point.

Is everything has been kosher up to this point, I'd just ask the breeder to see proof that her kennel is inspected (and passed) find out what AKC "approved" means & get written proof of that is well. Just be sure to cover all your bases, ask questions & get proof.

Good luck!!

JHarper · #3 07-01-2007, 06:09 AM

Maybe she'd be willing to take a few pictures and show you?

I understand your dilemma, we've all been told not to trust breeders who wont show you the parents, or kennels. And providing she's telling the truth, I'd also understand where the breeder is coming from as well.

I'm just thinking that she'd be willing to go outside, snap a few pics with your digital camera, and bring it back in for you to look at it. that would prove that it is in fact her kennel she's taking a picture of, and you can make your decision from there.

Draymia · #4 07-01-2007, 07:14 AM

As a breeder, I can understand not wanting to expose my dogs to disease or mites? But, then mine are all house dogs and I have very few litters, so I really don't give "kennel" tours.

Some people do house their dogs in a kennel, but almost everyone I know has their litters in the house.

AKC does not "inspect and approve" a kennel unless the person is producing over seven litters a year or they have received quite a few complaints. AKC is more interested in proper paperwork and not approving "kennels".

Not being able to see the female would be a deal breaker for me! How about the sire?

Also, have they shown you copies of health tests? Not just a vet saying they are healthy.

CharlyFarly · #5 07-01-2007, 09:34 AM

I've only gotten verbal confirmation regarding health tests (heart holter and thyroid) along with notice of a neuter agreement and health guarantee (which seems pretty standard form). I've seen pictures of male and female (as well as the kennel) as they are in Nebraska. The kennel seems clean and large and the dogs seem to look healthy BUT they only had pregant female pics which I thought was odd - which now given the potential for 7 litters a year or more makes sense - and raises another red flag.

Okay thanks for the advice - I'll see if she will fax confirmation of health tests and ask about about kennel certification. If that isn't forthcoming then of course I'm done but if she can then it's on to figuring out if they are overusing their females. They currently have 5 females (2 retired and three active) and seven litters per year with three dogs seems too much to me. What do you think?

I feel that I am so untrusting and I don't trust my judgement. While the internet is so good in someways it also is so abused and people unfortunately aren't always honest. I'm not sure it's my gut talking that is making me hesitate or whether I'm just less sure that people are honest. Your feedback really helps to provide some balance - so thanks very much.

ELubas · #6 07-01-2007, 04:14 PM

I might pass on this litter... Seven litters from three dogs in a year seems like a lot to me. Also agree I would not take a pup if I could not at least meet the Mom. It might all be perfectly legit but there is something about it all together that would make me uneasy. But whatever you decide wishing you the best of luck

MikaMay · #7 07-01-2007, 06:28 PM

I've got to jump in here.....7 litters from 3 females? within one year would be physically impossible. Females typically only come into heat twice a year and some only once.

There is a possibility that one or both of the two retirees were just *recently* retired and maybe a couple of them had 2 litters within a year> so there is a possibilty of 7 litters in a year with 5 females.

BUT, to throw another wrench into this, I'll add, that AKC changed their rules on inspections.....they now inspect breeders who have only 3 or 4 litters per year to catch the ones who were potentially avoiding being inspected, so one can NO LONGER assume a breeder had that many litters. Will also add that IF they were in fact inspected by AKC, they would have been given a copy of the *score sheet* by the AKC rep. who did the inspection (& they would have received that the day of the inspection.)

After having said all that.....AKC is not in the business of *approving* kennels in any way. They are simply a registry. BUT, if the breeder did pass an inspection, then that basically means their dogs are in good condition, the kennel is clean and adequate, dogs are properly identified (& possibly/probably dna'd), and paper work is in order.

You could request a *recent* pic of mom & dad, along with other info mentioned as well as contact info from previous puppy buyers.

Hope this helps...and, yes, I'm a breeder (not Boxers) and have been thru inspections by AKC, so I do know what I'm saying

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Mom to:
Mika, flashy fawn female
Greta, flashy brindle female

CharlyFarly · #8 07-02-2007, 09:40 AM

This does help. Thanks so much. I'm communicating back and forth with breeder. She has been very forthcoming and not at all defensive about all of my questions - which I take as a good sign. The information she has provided is in line with what MikaMay provided - so that helped a lot.

I can't thank you guys enough and while we are still talking - we will let you know how we proceed.

scott95 · #9 07-02-2007, 04:37 PM

When I got Jackson 4 1/2 years ago we were able to meet the bitch while she was still pregnant. We wanted to see the litter and her after they were about 3 or 4 weeks old and told that we could come and see them but it would STRICTLY be looking in through the window into the room that she used as a kennel per the same type of reasons you are stating this breader will not allow you to see them. She did not want any type of diseases to possibly infect them. So I would say ask if you can look in at them through a window, or as was stated earlier in this thread have her snap some pics with your camera. If she refuses to do either of these I would pass on getting a pup from her all together.

kassa · #10 07-17-2007, 10:52 AM

Even if a legitimate hobby breeder underwent a random AKC inspection, it's not something she'd use as an endorsement! She'd be explaining it away, if anything. So to my mind, trying to pass off "AKC inspected" as some kind of badge of quality means they're scamming you or they don't know any better, both of which are bad news.

Even the people I know who have kennels have their puppies in the house. The kennels are simply used to rotate dogs outside, house visiting dogs, etc.

I would never, ever buy a puppy without seeing the HOME in which the pup was raised -- there had better be LOTS of signs of dog life in there. Nylabones on the floor, maybe signs of teeth marks on the cabinets

Dog people aren't always the most pristine housekeepers, but you should never ever doubt that the dogs live in the house as members of the family. Especially, for heaven's sake, an expectant dam.

Not to mention the fact that puppies should be learning the "sounds of civilization" from the moment their ears open. Dishwashers, footsteps, televisions, doors opening and closing -- all the sounds that they need to be comfortable with. Off in some kennel run? Never!