My dealings with a couple of breeders. Wanted some advice...

[BigChief]

Well, i have been dealing with a couple of different breeders. I've just shot a couple of emails back and forth really. I wanted to post their websites and what has transpired between us. Im not sure if I am allowed... But here goes..


Website removed by moderator
EMails transpired:

I first contacted inquiring about puppies from reputable breeder. Here was the response:

"we do have a litter on the ground right now!! We have a beautiful flashy reverse brindle girl waiting to go to her new home. She is being sold on a spay contract only! If you are interested in her you can see pictures that are posted at our website link below. She has already been vaccinated and microchipped. We do sell EVERY puppy with a 2-year health warranty. I hope if you have any other questions you won't hesitate to let me know."

I followed up that I was looking for a brindle male. Here is what she went back:

"We do not have any males available, they were first to be placed with this litter. We do have two brindle litters planned to be bred very soon if you are interested. One will be out of half German lines and the other both sides American. Both litters are our of our reverse brindle boy and both bitches are heart holtered with 0 and 1 pvc respectively. If you are interested in waiting for either litter we have started a waiting list."

Here is the email i sent to her:

"Thank you for responding to my emails so quickly. I'm sorry that it took me so long to get back with you. I have been really busy lately with life. I'd like to ask you a few questions about you and your boxers if you dont mind answering them before I decide to get on a waiting list with you.

Again, I am sorry if this is a long list of questions. I have done a lot of research on the boxer breed (which i hope pleases you), and want to make sure that I am getting a great companion, and to be straight forward with you, a great companion from someone who is reputable.

How long have you been showing boxers? How long have you been breeding boxers? What interests you in breeding boxers?

Are you breeding for show purposes, or simply to place in homes? Why are you breeding two litters? How and from where are you getting the dogs to breed? From other breeders?

When do you generally release them from the litter to go home and what kind of support do you provide after I take them home? Do you send them home with any food, etc? Are you available to contact via phone If I have a question or something happens i need your help with?

What kind of pre screening of your potential buyers do you conduct prior to the sale? Do you pick the puppy for me based on what you know about me, or do I pick the puppy? (i'm looking for a great looking flashy brindle male, flashy fawn male second choice)

Do you have a contract, and if so what are the major details included in that contract Is there a health guarantee? (can you send me a cop of the contract?)

What health testing do you conduct on your boxers and what are the results? (i.e, hip dysplasia, cariomyopathy, aortic stenosis, hypothyroidism, are they certified vision with the canine eye registration foundation etc)

What is the socialization of the puppy after birth? Are they raised IN the household where they would be able to experience all the sights and sounds and are they handled frequently? Or are they left outside?

Are their tails docked and dew claws removed?

Do you have a policy on ear cropping?

What papers do you include in the sale?

Can you provide references from previous buyers?

Can i come meet your boxers?

A lot of your pictures on the website are down, could you send me some pix of your dogs?

Also, I would like to know more information about how the waiting list goes. How long will i be waiting, is money down required? regarding the german lines and the american lines. What are the differences between the two. From what I understand the german dog is a bigger dog, is that true? What about temperament?

I'm sure I'll think of more questions to ask as time goes on, and I know its a lot of questions thrown at you at once. I'd appreciate it if you would take the time to answer each one and shoot me an email back...
"

Think I covered almost every question? What else could I follow up on with questions? I will post the response, but would like opinions, as I really have no one personally I could ask.

Thanks in advance for everyone's help!

[BigChief]

Here is the breeders reply to my long list of questions,

It seems very positive so far!! I'm quite pleased with the answers and it seems to be a reputable breeder who health tests and is looking to improve the breed and not just make money... I'm quite excited! What do you guys think

"That is a really long list of questions, but I will try to answer them all. First of all of the litters we personally whelp, are whelped in our kitchen and the puppies live in our house. The puppies are handled daily to get them used to the kind human touch, they do learn all the sights and sounds of the household. We dock tails and remove dew claws at 2-4 days of age. We microchip every puppy that we place in hopes that if it would ever be lost or stolen this would help us to recover the dog. Most of our puppies have already learned how to walk on a leash and to sit on command by the time they leave our house to go to new homes. We do not require ears to be cropped unless puppies are being sold as show prospects, under that circumstance we require that ears are done here with us unless prior arrangements are made with another respected vet that does show crops. We own four dogs, all of which are health tested (if at breeding age) for heart- OFA SAS normal and heart holter for cardiomyopathy, OFA thyroid normal and OFA hips! They all live in the house with us and are companions before show dogs, that is also how we place our puppies. We do not place our puppies in homes where they will be living outside or in a kennel environment. We invite you to come and visit our home and to meet us and our dogs. We do require an application to be filled out so that we can try to fit the dog to the family based on puppy personality and experience in the new home. We try to take into consideration the look you are looking for when helping you to pick out your puppy. We do not require a financial deposit to put you on a waiting list, but it would guarantee you a pick. The scheduled breedings are outside bitches to our stud dog!! Both bitches that will be bred to Reece have beautiful structures and head pieces, but both bitches need a little size which is why Reece is a wonderful fit. We require that bitches used with Reece be heart holtered for cardiomyopathy because this is the one disease that we test for that can cause the loss of life of a boxer at a young age. Some instances have been as young as 14 weeks in a puppy, or so I have seen in practice. Mady as well as her mother and a litter mate were all tested with 0 pvc's which is perfect and normal. Pearl of German lines was tested with 1 pvc which is also normal. German boxers are not bigger than American boxers, they are generally more compact and square, which is something the American dogs are losing. Reece, our stud, stands 25 inches at the whithers and weighs 70#. Both Mady and Pearl are about 22 inches and about 55#. All of our litters, even those Reece sires, we are looking at improvement of what we already have for the show ring, sometimes that works when producing a litter and sometimes it does not! We evaluate our litters for show prospects and try to place those pups that will have that potential in show homes where the owners want to show or would be willing to show. We are available for the life of the puppy/dog for any help or advise that may be needed. We also require that any dog we have sold or bred come back to us, no matter how old or in what condition. This is so that we can re-home them if possible and keep our dogs out of shelters. We do require a spay/neuter contract on any puppy we sell into a pet home and a co-ownership on anyone that may have breeding or show potential to make sure that all appropriate testing is done before breeding. We do warranty the life of every puppy we place no matter if for show or pet for 2-years in writing which is included in our contract.
I think I have answered all of your questions, if not let me know, I am an open book and very up front about my dogs and the breeding program. I hope if you have more questions you will not hesitate to let me know.


I forgot a couple questions I know you asked. Reece is our first show dog, he was bought from a breeder in Ohio. His father is a champion and he is out of two outstanding show lines. He is 3 and we started showing him young, but needed to give him a chance to mature. He has been showing limited here in Florida with handler Kay Palade and got his first Reserve last weekend in Ocala, we are hoping he will be finished by the spring. We love showing! We love it because it gives us a chance to see how our dogs and breedings stack up to the standard, it is a good way to see how we are doing. It is also addictive and we can't wait to get back out there to see what we will do the next time."

[stuvey]

I dont get this thread...

[pmari3]

I'm not an expert, I only know what I have learned here on BW, but she seems great! I'd definitely make arrangements to go visit and meet her dogs. Then you just have to decide if you want to get on her waiting list.

Good luck!

[BigChief]

Originally Posted by stuvey

I dont get this thread...

Uh, what dont you get about this thread? I've posted up some of the responses that I've received via a particular breeder that I am thinking of going with and wanted to know what everyone thought about her responses.


Pmari3: So she sounds like a reputable breeder??

[stuvey]

... anyway, with what she's said, Im sure she would have the right, trustworthy companion for you. Good luck.

[kpowell]

I'm a relative newby here myself, but I'm ready to put a deposit down!

[StormKatz]

I only see a mere mention of her showing or exhibiting her own dogs. Microchipping, & doing health testing is great, but it doesn't make you a reputable breeder, or validate bringing more puppies into the world & having champion bloodlines doesn't mean her dogs are worthy of producing. Show me some titles, (not one small win) coupled with the health testing, health guarentee's, alter contracts, etc.... then you'll have yourself a reputable breeder.

My advise: Keep looking! Contact your local breed club to help find established reputable breeders in your area, or better yet RESCUE!

[BigChief]

Latest update:

I don't mind any of your questions I enjoy chatting with someone that seems to have a real interest in where and why type of boxer he is buying. The bitches Reece is currently scheduled to be bred with are not our dogs they live in other locations, the pups that we get from these litters will come to us at 6 weeks of age for us to begin evaluating. Reece was tested OFA SAS normal by a cardiologist, OFA hips fair, OFA thyroid normal and Heart holtered with 0 pvc's. Pearl the half German bitch has been tested heart holter 1 pvc, she has not been tested for SAS, Thyroid or Hips. Mady has been heart holtered with 0 pvc's and she has also been tested thyroid normal as well, again these are not my bitches. I am big on Cardiomyopathy which is what the holter screens for, that is the disease that will kill your dog!! A dog can live years with a murmur, bad hips or a thyroid problem, but CM is life threatening. Not that I want to produce pups with any health problems, but if I have to make a bitch owner test for only one thing CM is what it is. Hips can't be certified by the OFA until 2 years of age and most bitches are getting close if not already bred by the time they can be tested. Once a bitch is in season you can not get an accurate result for hips or SAS.
Both Pearl and Mady are a little on the smaller end of the boxer height requirement, Mady is from some outstanding West Coast lines and is very square build, but she needed some more height. Pearl being of German lines is also a little smaller, but stockier. Reece is a very tall boxer, but still square. Reece's biggest weakness is he drops off at his croup or the base of his tail. Instead of his tail coming right of his back it drops off. Both Mady and Pearl are very strong here and we hope to fix that with each breeding. Mady needs just a small amount of help with her head as her muzzle is a little longer than we like, but Reece has such a beautiful headpiece that will be corrected with this breeding for the most part.
Every litter we breed we hope to have a show quality puppy. We are very realistic that we may only have one, we will strive to keep or place that puppy in a home that will give him or her the opportunity to put him/her in the show ring. It is easier to rule pups out of show prospects and takes much longer to rule them in.
We allow our puppies to go to their new homes between 8-9 weeks old, unless for some reason that is not possible for a new owner. Right now we have our white pup and he will not be going to his new home until the end of the month, but he could have gone home on the first. This was the best thing for him as we found the perfect home, but they did not want to bring home a new baby when they were planning on going on vacation for a week right after he was ready to go home. So he stayed with us.
The bitches will not whelp with us!! They will whelp with their families where they will be comfortable and well cared for. We always help place the puppies when we use our dog for stud service to make sure they end up in wonderful homes. Not that the female's owners can't handle it but it is always nice to partner up. Pearl's Dad doesn't like to do paperwork and sell pups, he loves caring for them and loving them so we partner up and I help him place all the pups. As far as visits you are more than welcome to visit the litters at either location after 5 weeks or you can wait until they come and live with us at 6-7 weeks.
Our pups are all sold with AKC registration papers, even the white pups, but pet/companion pups are sold on limited registration and we don't hand them over until proof of spay/neuter has been received. If a pup on pet contract turns out to be a wonderful example of the breed and the owner is interested in breeding or showing we can always change the contract and the registration if it seems like it will be a good match. Show and breeding potentials are sold on co-ownerships only and we require that they be health tested to ensure that we are breeding healthy animals. These stipulations are made to keep the dogs safe and for no other reason. There are many puppy mills that would love to get their hands on a dog from one of these breedings. That being said I know that a spayed bitch will not do them any good! So the only way to protect a dog that may change hands is to have it fixed if it isn't in that dog's future to contribute to the gene pool. Each puppy goes home with a full contract including microchip and registration number, this is also a bill of sale for that dog until we are able to send home papers because of mail or waiting for spay/neuter.
Reece comes from two of the most respected bloodlines in the country. His father just turned nine this spring and his mom is six. Reece has a wonderful temperament and just loves everyone. I take him to work with me at the clinic all the time and my friends all call him a whore. lol. Reece is a title Canine Good Citizen (CGC) and a registered therapy and service dog. He is very outgoing and loves everyone, but not cocky.
Mady's litter will not have reverse brindles, it will be all brindles, but the amount of brindle will vary. The pups will have flash as well. Pearl's litter will also be all brindle and will vary with the amount of flash. She will give us more a variety of brindle and some will be reverse. Reece throws big litters his last few litters were 10-9-9-10.
If you want to do ears I would be more than happy to make sure it is done correctly, our doctor charges around $300 and it is done around 8 weeks. But you must be prepared for the aftercare involved in cropped ears, it can sometimes take months of taping and posting for the ears to stand correctly.
Mady was already supposed to have come into season and she hasn't, so we are just waiting for her. I am sure it will be soon. Pearl should be coming into season in November and that is if she comes in on time. These are going to be two outstanding litters and we are very excited about both.
I hope I have answered all your questions fully, if not please let me know. I don't mind answering any questions you have, it is always worth it when someone is trying to learn.


The part that bothers me is that the puppies leave their mother at 6-7 weeks. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Also, that the puppies are not going to be whelped at the breeders house that I am speaking with, so I dont really know exactly what the condition of the place they are going to be breeding in. I am, of course, going to ask, but I find that a little funny the way this is working. What do you guys think?

[BigChief]

Some more information...

Generally there are no complications of the pups leaving their mother at 7 weeks of age, we still have "mothers" that they interact with for socialization and they are still with their littermates. Well I am not sure why you expected a litter to be whelped in my home when the bitch was not mine, that would be very stressful to the bitch to whelp in a home that she is not comfortable or familiar with. The puppies are whelped in their mother's homes as I said before with their owners. We just own the stud for these litters and help to evaluate and place the pups in homes. Neither bitch has been shown, Mady because her owner is just getting into showing and this will be her owner's first show potential litter. Pearl because she is half German, we are hoping this breeding will provide enough American looks to German tradition to make the pups competitive in the conformation ring. As I have said before the German lines have a little bit different look of being smaller and stockier, more defined muscle. Reece the sire has won his classes on numerous occasions and for that he brings home ribbons. He has also won a reserve award which is also a ribbon, his photo of his first is on the website. Winning his classes and the reserve means he will be very competitive in the show ring, but he is being show on a limited basis as he is our family pet much before he is a show dog.
As I said you are more than welcome to visit our home now to meet us and the sire or the home where the pups will be whelped to meet the owners and mothers.

[ELubas]

Not unusual for pups to be weaned then, or whelped in another home. I do think you should request evidence of the health testing on both parents and perhaps you could talk to the other party about conditions in thier home for the pups. I think you have found a good breeder but the botton line is alot of folks are breeding boxers and not all will be from champion lines. I assume you are looking for a good companion animal with a solid temperment and a healthy gene pool as free of defects as can be determined. You seem to have this in this breeder. Ask about teh logevity of teh dogs on both sides. Some dogs are bred "defect" free and then a litter mate will present with a congential defect after breedings have occurred. It's not a perfect science but certainly this breeder appears to be doing more than the majoity I have spoken to over the years in searches for pups. I would ask for evidence of the heart testing however to be sure it was performed by a cardiac vet. That is where iyour biggest risk lies, in my opinion, having one boxer with SAS and having lost another to BCM. Good luck and long life to your pup to be!

[4everdogs]

Originally Posted by BigChief

Reece was tested OFA SAS normal by a cardiologist, OFA hips fair, OFA thyroid normal and Heart holtered with 0 pvc's. Pearl the half German bitch has been tested heart holter 1 pvc, she has not been tested for SAS, Thyroid or Hips. Mady has been heart holtered with 0 pvc's and she has also been tested thyroid normal as well, again these are not my bitches.

I know hearts are important, but from I have researched/learned - I wouldn't want a dog with a sire who has fair hips especially when they are being bred to a dog who's hips haven't been tested. I know HD isn't a killer, but it is definately expensive to fix and then you factor in the the pain and suffering the dog has to go through. This would be a deal ender for me.