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  #1  
Old 22nd December 2005, 06:42 AM
carolshafer's Avatar
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Sealed black Boxer?

The breeder I got Hannah from sent us a Christmas card yesterday explaining she has expanded the breeding of quality AKC Boxers to include reverse brindle and "sealed black" Boxers. I have tried looking up a sealed black Boxer and get very little information. Okay, experts, can you please help?
Thank you all in advance!
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  #2  
Old 22nd December 2005, 07:30 AM
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Umm. Sounds extremely dubious to me.

1. "Reverse" brindle is not a colour that is any different to any other shade of brindle. It is a term used in North America simply to describe a dog that has such a heavy concentration of brindle stripes so as to have the appearance of being a dark dog with fawn stripes (as opposed to a fawn dog with dark stripes). But that is appearance only. There is nothing genetically different about any of the shades of brindle - just a matter of how many stripes the dog has. The opposite is "light" brindle - describing a dog that has very few brindle stripes. And in between all that, there is "golden" brindle, "fawn" brindle, "brown" brindle, "red" brindle, "mahogany" brindle, etc. These simply describe the shade of fawn ground colour, exactly the same as for differing shades of solid fawn boxers.

Since there is nothing genetically different about dark brindle dogs (including reverse/seal brindle) you cannot breed "for" it. A light brindle dog mated with a fawn might produce dark brindle puppies. Two dark brindles might produce a litter of fawn puppies. You probably (possibly) have a higher chance of producing dark brindle pups from dark brindle parents - but certainly not in any predictable manner.

You might like to note that although the US and Canadian boxer standards allow for "reverse" or "seal" brindle dogs, most (possibly all) other boxer standards round the world describes the colour as undesirable or even a named fault (same goes for light brindle).

2. "Seal" brindle is a term used in some parts of Canada to describe the same colour that is called "reverse" brindle in the US. Once again, it is a description of a shade of brindle only. Not a different or new colour of dog.

3. There is no such thing as a black boxer. It is a genetic impossibility for a boxer to be purebred and also black. The gene for solid black coat colour simply does not exist within the boxer gene pool. And that is something that is very well documented by canine geneticists. A black boxer is like a brindle rottweiler: the only way to get one is to breed a boxer with some other breed that does carry that gene (labradors, for example).

There is more information about coat colour inheritance at www.boxerworld.com/coat_colour

And what to look out for in breeders advertising so-called black boxers on our FAQ page www.boxerworld.com/faq

You should also note the following from the rules:
Quote:
"Black boxer" threads are not allowed: there are no black boxers because it is a genetic impossibility to have a pure bred black boxer. If you "see" one it is likely a cross breed or a "reverse brindle". We have enough of back yard breeders advertising them.
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  #3  
Old 22nd December 2005, 07:51 AM
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Thank you so very much for the information!

 
  #4  
Old 12th January 2006, 02:10 PM
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Angry

I too have seen many references to and pictures of so-called "sealed brindle" boxers by purported reputable breeders claiming to have owned boxers for many years. I wanted to post a question about it but wasn't sure about the extent of the BW rule regarding black boxers, i.e., no posts referencing black boxers in anyway or no posts promoting them as being a purebred boxer. I absolutely have no intention of promoting such breeders or these purported black boxers. To the contrary, I was appalled that these breeders were advertising as purebred boxers, dogs and puppies that are CLEARLY not purebred boxers. Although labeled "sealed brindle", these dogs were not brindle or reverse brindle. My first thought was that the dogs had been crossed with a great dane or other dog similar in build to a boxer but that carried a solid black coat gene. Is there nothing that can be done to prevent breeders from selling these dogs as purebred boxers? Does the AKC have some procedure whereby these breeders can be reported for registering non-purebred dogs? At the least, I would think it violates consumer protection laws to sell a dog as purebred when it is a genetic impossibility. Sorry this is so long but I was very disturbed to see so many breeder sites advertising these dogs and just wondered if there was anything that could be done about it. Also, if this post violates the BW rule, I won't post about the issue again. Thanks.
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  #5  
Old 12th January 2006, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxerloverbp
Also, if this post violates the BW rule, I won't post about the issue again.
It does. The reason we don't allow the discussion of black boxers - even from the perspective you're coming from - is that invariably someone else will leap in claiming that they do exist, they saw one, or saw a website advertising them, or know a BYB producing them, and they're registered, therefore they must be purebred (never mind that you can register a kitten as a purebred boxer - and get away with as long as nobody complains). But some poor fool will end up believing it

It is a well documented genetic fact that a pure bred boxer cannot be black - we're not about to give time, bandwidth and advertising to the BYBs out there trying to pass off mixed breed dogs as some sort of "special" boxer.

Before I close the thread though, I will answer your question Yes, there is a complaints procedure with the AKC. Registration of dogs is purely an honour system. If you breed a beagle with a chow and tell the AKC they're boxers, and claim that two registered boxers were the parents - they will register the puppies as boxers. If someone complains though, then they will investigate the claim (as I recall, there is a deposit to be paid when you register a complaint - to deter malicious complaints. It is refundable if the complaint is upheld). And if someone is found to have misrepresented the parentage of a litter, then they are liable for discipline, which may include removal of the right to register future litters. You will find information about that on the AKC website, under disciplinary matters.

A couple of things to be aware of though: their investigation would only determine if the parents of the litter are indeed the dogs claimed. It won't determine the breed of the parents. So if those parents were mixed breed dogs registered as boxers, then there is no fraud (yet). The parents are indeed the dogs the "breeder" claimed. Those dogs would probably need to appear substantially unlike boxers for the investigation to go back further generations, until the deception was uncovered.