A online breeder has breed a white boxer, should I get one of the offspring?

[Bufords Pop]

Well, as someone who's recently lost the best friend he's ever had as a result of the poor breeding that has threatened to ruin the future of our breed, I don't think I could ever afford NOT to pay the costs for a "good puppy" again..

I've been an advocate of rescuing over the years because seeing all these beautiful boxers that are homeless is so sad- and I still might rescue in the future.. But coming home, looking thru my window from my driveway, seeing the other boxers, perched up in their crates knowing Dad was home as usual, only to see Elliot dead in his crate from BoxerCardiomyopathy is a site that is etched in my mind in very painful detail.. I'd have given you $15,000 that day- and every day since- just to have him back.. Hell, I'll pay it just to be able to say goodbye.. I miss him more & more every day.. I try to pretend to be happy because I don't want to burden my family with my sorrow- and the guilt for not really being much support for them during this time is also a bit heavy, though thankfully they understand that Elliot & I had a special bond..I don't know if I'll ever recover from that day, I only hope to make it thru a day without crying at this point.. Honestly, the prospect of me realizing that goal doesn't really look good at this point..

I'm a grown man, whose 23 year old daughter told his wife "I've never seen Dad cry before this" - and now here I am- just hoping to limp thru a day without crying.. Life comes at you fast..My daughters getting married in the morning & it's bittersweet-like every other wonderful moment I'll probably experience for a while.. A fully health tested boxer for $1200-$2000? I'LL TAKE IT!!!!! God knows I've paid much more than that in the past 2 months- if heartache could be converted into financial figures that is..

[kwkelsey]

WOW. Its amazing the responses I got and I thank you. BUT I don’t remember where I stated that the price was a problem because I wanted a new puppy right now, now!! Nor did I say I couldn’t afford it! What my question was, should I purchase a boxer breed from a white boxer and I think I got my answer.

What is funny is that most responses just proved my point. $2000 for a dog is just plain absurd and is taking advantage of people like me and poor Bufords pop...let me explain.

I have talked to literally dozens of breeders, from BYB to "professional'. You would be shocked at the level of greed and incompetence I found in both BYB and the 'professional' From what I found, its hard to tell the difference.

Now from what I was told, the "professional" breeder charges sky high prices because of the costs involved in the testing. It was also suggested that they breed and charge so much not for the money but to ensure that they can deliver the most healthy, well mannered dog possible. Really?? Lets do some math.

From what I have been told, the tests for heart, thyroid, hips, etc run on avg $1500 per dog. That’s 3k right, and the average litter of puppies run around 6-8 puppies? Average sales price run around $1500? Lets throw in another 1k for shots, worming, puppy food, time, etc. Total cost around 4k. That’s a minimum net profit of $5000-8000!! Hummm, yup not in it for the money, right. The hypocrisy is amazing.

What’s more, and this is something that none of you mentioned and not many 'professional' breeders would either...just because you paid an over inflated price for the assurances of a test doesn’t mean that your 'show caliber / champion health tested' dog isn't going to come down with a genetic health problem.

Oh and how much for a cancer test? Oh yes cancer! Boxers number 1 killer and yet not a single person here mentioned that. What... no test for cancer? So again, please explain to me why its worth paying double for a dog that still doesn’t offer a 100% guarantee not to develop a genetic defect makes sense. I agree, I would pay more for the assurances, but 2k? Come on, wake up ppl.

THIS is exactly what is wrong with the breed these days. Let there be no mistake, I do not advocate blindly buying a dog without doing plenty of research into the background of dog and breeder, nor do I advocate supporting people who shouldn’t be breeding (professional and BYB) but its hard to argue when these professional breeders are making 100% profit, charging crazy fees and the BYB aren’t even coming close. Whose doing it for the money?? Yes, getting a boxer from a sire and dam that has been tested will lessen the chances, but it still doesn’t guarantee no problems and if these professional breeders charged prices that were say around $800-$1000 then wouldn’t that force the BYB to charge less? Yes it would, but the simple fact of the matter is, the professional breeders are using fear tactics and using peoples sorrow of a lost best friend to say, hey....if you don’t want your best friend to die an early death again, buy from me....I test my dogs...that will be 2k please.

Simple economics folks and if you cant see the logic, your either really rich and foolish and/or just lost a dog to poor genetics or are a breeder that makes some good money. There is no reason what so ever to charge so much. They still can make money charging less while assuring that the gene pool is kept at a high standard. All their doing is helping make the BYB even more money. The BYB can charge $800 for a untested boxer all day long when these elitist breeders are charging double. What a shame!! Dont know if I am getting a boxer....doesnt sound like the breed is in very good hands...sad sad day indeed!!

[palemask]

I teared up just reading your sorrow, What can I say to make you feel better? Sometimes we do not get over things, we just learn to put them on a special shelf in our heart and go on. Even the most responsible breeder cannot predict if a recessive gene will present its self in the future. This happens. Buying a 1200 dollar Boxer does not mean it can't happen. Elliot had a wonderful dad and his time with you enriched his and your life. I have three boxers, I think how I will or would feel if one died. Just like you. God Bless.

[palemask]

I breed one litter a year am I a Back Yard Breeder? It took me 2 years to breed by first litter because I researched bloodlines. Resessive genes. research,research,research! I follow all A.K.C. rules and a member of A.K.C. I provide my buyers with a health contract and will take one of my boxers back for any reason at anytime for any reason. I keep in touch with my buyers and care about my babbies. I would never,never breed a white boxer. They are a boxer like any other, all the love, and traits the same, so why would I want to breed a boxer to possibly suffer. I hate breeders who give we that breed to improve the breed a bad reputation without us the boxer breed would lose integrity. I support boxer rescue, but if you cannot afford to buy a dog, which is nothing to the cost of food, shots, mishaps, etc. don't get one. I screen my buyers carefully and turn down many. As for finding a responsible breeder do your reserch also, contact A.K.C. or the Humane Society if you see someone just in it for the money, because believe me, I spend more on my puppies than they are bought for. Always get a health contract, name of breeders vet. a Vet health record of your new puppy. Call that persons vet, the breeder should have given permission(written) to give out information to possiable buyers. On white boxers go to A.K.C.org.

[gmacleod]

Originally Posted by kwkelsey

WOW. Its amazing the responses I got and I thank you. BUT I don’t remember where I stated that the price was a problem because I wanted a new puppy right now, now!! Nor did I say I couldn’t afford it!

No, you said you wouldn't afford it. Remember this bit?

If one wants a proven healthy boxer, one has to go to a professional breeder that actually can provide health tests and pedigree papers. Unfortunately, that also means paying $1200+ for a boxer as a pet. ...Now let there be no mistake, I am well aware of the costs and time involved in creating a champion and the costs involved in all the testing that is done but $1200-$2000 for a boxer is above and beyond. ...I never thought I would see the day only a select few rich people are now the only people that can afford a healthy dog! I apologize but I am very frustrated and truly saddened that I may not be able to get a boxer.

From what I have been told, the tests for heart, thyroid, hips, etc run on avg $1500 per dog. That’s 3k right, and the average litter of puppies run around 6-8 puppies? Average sales price run around $1500? Lets throw in another 1k for shots, worming, puppy food, time, etc. Total cost around 4k. That’s a minimum net profit of $5000-8000!! Hummm, yup not in it for the money, right. The hypocrisy is amazing.

You inability to see beyond the end of your own nose is equally amazing. On the other hand, your fixation on and (inflated) estimations of other people's income is quite astounding. Average litter size, incidentally, is not 6-8 puppies (try 5). You missed out stud fees also (at least equal to one puppy, so that's only 4 to sell) And heck, the point of breeding the litter was to produce the next generation for this breeding program. So one is being retained - the breeder actually has only 3 pups to sell. Average cost of whelping/raising a litter isn't 1K either - 2K is more like it (assuming a clean whelp and no other problems, naturally). Your supposed $1500 average price is still going to leave breeders of the AVERAGE litter out of pocket. Averages aren't that relevant though, when most responsible breeders are only going to have a litter every couple of years or so anyway (bad luck then when there's only one puppy in the litter - as is quite common)

Simple economics folks and if you cant see the logic, your either really rich and foolish and/or just lost a dog to poor genetics or are a breeder that makes some good money.

Indeed, simple economics. TOO simple, since you managed to leave out most of the costs (I understand, it helps your argument to do so). I'm not quite sure why you think that the price of a puppy should equal the cost of production in the first place - but if you insist upon looking at your puppy commodity in that way, you should also consider that since most responsible breeders will only have a litter once every couple of years or more, you've got a whole lot of costs (feeding, housing, showing, vet bills, stud fees) that you're conveniently leaving out your equation here. Or you think it's only costs in the few weeks that the puppies are actually on the ground that count? How about the costs of ongoing support to buyers and a guarantee to take the pup (or adult dog) back if at any time the buyer decides they no longer want it?

You also fail to even consider the costs of (common) occurances such as medical treatment for the dam. Eclampsia, emergency c-section, pyometra, etc - if it happens, that's going to run to a heck of a lot more than the 1K you've allocated. What about when it all goes wrong, such as the situation described in this thread? Sabine - an ordeal - a lesson for Aspiring Breeders

There are PLENTY of responsible breeders from whom it is possible to get a well bred puppy whose parents have been screened for those genetic diseases common to the breed (and for which effective testing is available) for a heck of a lot less than $2K. If you're not prepared to pay that much, get off your backside and look further afield till you find one with a price you consider more reasonable (or get a white one, or rescue). It will bring you far greater satisfaction than sitting here whinging about prices and profit levels that - in the vast majority of cases - are a product of your imagination, with little bearing on reality.

As for cancer - sure, its a concern. Responsible breeders will not breed from cancer sufferers or their close relatives - and that's one of the questions any buyer should be asking in determining whether or not the breeder in question is actually responsible There isn't much point in insisting upon a "test" until such time as an effective one exists. There is plenty of work in progress though - for example this: http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/cancer.htm

No, genetic screening does not provide a 100% guarantee. Nothing does. But it greatly reduces the risk of your commodity dropping dead at age 3 and requiring expensive replacement (not to mention little issues like the heartbreak that tends to go with it).

What my question was, should I purchase a boxer breed from a white boxer and I think I got my answer.

You did, and it should be the end of it.

[Draymia]

gmacleod says it all, very well!

To think we breeders are all getting rich is quite laughable. Let's see. I just sent blood samples in for my guys and close relatives for the new ARVC DNA test. Only cost me $808.00. I will be doing every puppy in the future, at $51.00 per pup, in addition to the other expenses. I just bred one of my girls, for my first litter in three years. Frozen semen insemination, for a cost of $1500.00 and won't even know if she is pregnant for a few more weeks. Hopefully she will have 4-5 pups???

So, yup, I am just raking those dollars in. We have a pet shop in my town that sells their Boxer pups for $1500.00 and up. No health tests at all.

[Draymia]

Originally Posted by palemask

I breed one litter a year am I a Back Yard Breeder?

I follow all A.K.C. rules and a member of A.K.C.

contact A.K.C. or the Humane Society if you see someone just in it for the money,

Hmmm, I have four boxers with three being females and have a litter every 2-4 years. But, at least you are honest.

The only AKC rules you have to follow is to register your litter and be sure your check is good. AKC does not have Members.....It is a registering body.....Nothing else!

The AKC and especially the Humane Society could care less about someone in it just for the money. Humane Societies actually would like every breeder of every breed to stop yesterday!

[kwkelsey]

Hysterical tirade deleted by moderator and member banned for the second time on this site. Some people just can't take a hint...

[Boxerworld]

As usual, when a member is wrong and cannot accept the need for responsibilty in breeding practices (and in this case, that there are costs incurred), they try to blame BW for "snooty attitudes" and apparently I am "obviously" a breeder and my agenda here is quite clear to quote this individual... I must then be the first dogless breeder!
Thanks to everyone who tried to educate that person even if it was a waste of time.
I am reminded of the backyard breeders big book of old excuses:
http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/vie...rs-excuses.htm

Olly