Muzzle Length-Not a "Real" boxer???

[jontiff]

My oldest boxer (ELVIS - 9 months) has a longer muzzle than many boxers. I have papers on him -AKC- although I know that isn't foolproof. My sister in law told my husband that Elvis has too long of a snout to be pure bred. The mother and father were on sight when we picked him out and they both looked like boxers to me. I didn't question their breeding because they looked like boxers, had a good demeanor, plus papers and the puppies were so adorable (this is all we wanted).

I thought I remember reading that even "pure bred" or show quality boxers can produce litters that are just not to breed standards. I was wondering if any breeders/experts see differences in muzzle length among litters of puppies (even in the same litter)????

Also, I have seen a large change in Elvis' muzzle since he was a pup. It seems to have widend & shortened. Will his muzzle change even more as he fills out???

Thanks - sorry this is so long!

[SILLY6PAK]

I doubt show quality boxers would produce litters with long muzzles. Your pup can be pure bred just not out of good quality. If both parents were on site it was most likely a BYB.

[jontiff]

Definitely a BYB - he gave the pups horse dewormer and I believe he cropped the tails himself (the vet said probably with rubberbands). Elvis' hair has never grown back on the end of his tail. But all the puppies still needed a loving home and I didn't plan on breeding (obviously) so I wasn't REAL concerned about the purity of his breed. However, I don't think he is one that you look at and say.. he's definitely not pure bred. I believe he's just not well bred. What do you think by looking at his photos?

I guess what gets me is that the comment was said in a negative manner like he's not a good dog if he isn't picture perfect, plus she is no expert and the comment was unsolicited. Not that it really matters as Elvis displays all the distinctly fun and charismatic boxer qualities that we were looking for and he is by far the best dog I have ever had in my 36 years (don't tell my 11 yr old basset that). My two boxers have brought so much joy and laughter in the house in the past 9 months, I will never consider any other breed.

[MikaMay]

Originally Posted by SILLY6PAK

I doubt show quality boxers would produce litters with long muzzles. Your pup can be pure bred just not out of good quality. If both parents were on site it was most likely a BYB.

I must respectfully disagree.

Show quality dogs can absolutely produce incorrect puppies (including longer muzzles). It is very rare for any breed of dog to have entire litters of show quality puppies. Some will be show quality and some will not be. An individual pup's muzzle may be longer than desired....bite may be incorrect or maybe have a bad front, or be cow-hocked.....any number of things. If this were not true...then that means that anyone/everyone on this forum who purchased their pup from a show breeder would have a show quality dog?? I doubt it. Also, just because a dog has a *fault* or does not conform to the (show) standard, that does not mean they are not purebred.

I also disagree that if a breeder has both parents on site, that automatically makes them a byb.

jmho

Mom to:
Mika, flashy fawn girl
Greta, flashy brindle girl
& a pack of Malts

http://community.webtv.net/dcm54/MikasWorld

[SILLY6PAK]

LOTS of things go into a dog being considered pet quality vs show quality. Yes a longer snout than desired is one but to be as long as the poster discrided AND both parents on site I would bet money on BYB. The OP also mentioned AKC papers which vertually means nothing in the quality department. Had the OP mentioned health testing then I would be more encouraged.

You are right about both parents on site not meaning BYB but again it is more than likely.

[BetsyB]

Originally Posted by SILLY6PAK

I doubt show quality boxers would produce litters with long muzzles. Your pup can be pure bred just not out of good quality. If both parents were on site it was most likely a BYB.

Are you suggesting that all kennels that own both bitches and sires are byb's? That notion sounds quite ridiculous to me considering the vast majority of kennels/breeders recognized by the American Boxer Club are self-contained kennels that breed their own stock. In fact, I would think it quite opposite in that byb's often can't afford/don't want the expense of paying for vets/feeding/boarding of opposite sex dogs, so they only own the bitches and pay for stud, or find a friend who has a male to breed. I think having both parents on site is imperative in evaluating temperment as well as features, and would consider it a positive aspect in determining whether a puppy will be a match for the prospective owner. Would you not feel most reassured of lineage and quality seeing both sire and dam?
That being said, as the owner knows in this case that the pup did come from a backyard breeder, it is likely that either the sire declared on the paperwork is not the true sire, or that somewhere in either parent's lineage is a longer snout fault. Does this mean you can't show your pup? Yes. Does this mean your pup is any less worthy or not a great pet? Absolutely not!
I think your boy is a cutie and I'm sure he is well loved. There is also the chance he will grow into his nose as he ages. Undoubtedly, now that the notion of a longer snout is in your head, you will see it as exagerated for a while. My dog has tiny crooked teeth on the bottom, but I still think she is a gorgeous girl!

[Jan]

Originally Posted by BetsyB

Are you suggesting that all kennels that own both bitches and sires are byb's? That notion sounds quite ridiculous to me

Actually it's not. It is very rare that you would have two dogs that are a perfect match for each other. When you breed, you should be breeding to improve the breed. No dog is perfect. When you breed you are looking to improve on those faults. Unless you have a huge kennel with a lot of dogs it is unlikely that you are going to find the perfect match at home. The sire of a well bred puppy almost always comes from elsewhere. If you just breed to the most convenient dog, chances are that any faults might get worse. One of the first things to go on a boxer is the nose.

[Jan]

Originally Posted by jontiff

I thought I remember reading that even "pure bred" or show quality boxers can produce litters that are just not to breed standards. I was wondering if any breeders/experts see differences in muzzle length among litters of puppies (even in the same litter)????

Yes, of course the muzzle length can change between puppies in the same litter., but they probably wouldn't have as long a nose as Elvis. It is definitely on the long side. That doesn't mean that he isn't purebred. It just means that the parents weren't being bred to improve the breed, which certainly suggests that it was a BYB. Elvis looks all boxer to me.

[jontiff]

Thanks for all the replies. I have read in different literature that the muzzle lengths can vary between litters but since I have never bred (nor plan to) any dogs I can't say that I know it's true. When I look at Elvis I see all boxer too, his snout looks long to me but not so long as to say that he isn't a purebred.

I can't imagine with all the coloring variations produced in a litter, that this would be the only difference between litter mates. Certainly breed features and tempermant also come into play????

Might seem crazy to compare children and pups, but everyone probably knows someone who has children from the same parents yet the children look totally different. My children, though similar in apperance, are day and night in personality. Even fraternal twins look different.

At any rate, I appreciate you looking at the pictures of Elvis and giving me your viewpoint - this time it is solicited and was what I was hoping for.

He's only 9 months and very lanky right now but weighs about 75 lbs. His face is filling out and I do notice a difference even in the past few months but I don't think his muzzle will ever look like my little girls'. He is perfect to me though - he's even recalled in midst of chasing a wild turkey, a squirrel, a bird, a cat- but not that darn armadillo!

I guess a negative comment about him kind of feels like a negative comment about one of my children and a punch in the stomach. Not that I can't handle the truth - just not crazy about unsolicited/unprofessional opinions.

Thanks again!

[billbgh]

I think that the nose has been evaluated enough. Elvis is beautiful and that's all that matters. If we were only loved for our looks, there'd be alot of lonely single people. Let's take your sister in law for example. She obviously has a flaw. She is so seemingly petty/jealous that she has to point out your dogs "flaws" to make herself feel better. Whether she is jealous of you(that's my guess) or of Elvis(he's gorgeous), it doesn't matter, what does matter is the fact that her flaw makes her unattractive Sorry if I've offended you or your sil about her "flaw".

Erin
Apollo & Rocky's mom