Incident with a child a couple weeks ago...should I be concerned? (long)

Arty · #1 10-03-2006, 09:20 AM

Ok..let me paint the picture first. We were having our family reunion, and Art & Tyson were at day care for the first part of the day. It ended up being a nice day, so I thought I would bring them back to the reunion since my family loves Arty. (And Tyson too). Arty has NEVER shown any aggression, or even so much as had a cautious look in his eye around kids. I bring him around kids all the time to help with this for when we have children...which we have one coming in March. He's played at the dog park with kids, let kids pet him at Petsmart and such, nothing. That's the background on them....

Now on the kid(s). Really the incident happened with one kid, and thankfully I was there. But about this kid...this is the worst behaved kid I have ever seen. He hits anyone...adults or kids...throws things wherever, with no regard to anyone around (he is only 2 or 3 I think, I have no idea. I don't really talk much with that side of the family). And I kid you not, he is nicknamed the "devil child" by everyone outside of his parents who do the worst job of disciplining I have ever seen. He is just a bad kid all around.

So here's what happened. The wife ended up picking the dogs up, and was walking them towards the picnic area. I saw her and started to make my way there, when this "devil child" is approaching her with the dogs. I am still a little ways back walking up there. She tells the kid to wait for me to get there before he can pet Arty (didn't ask or anything, was just going right to him), since she had both dogs(she was carrying Tyson). So just as I get up there the kid goes to touch Arty (before I could get Arty in a sit or anything), and Arty gives a little growl and a snap. Not a snap where he was trying to bite him, because he very very easily could...but more like a warning. Right after that...my other cousin who is the same age (and MUCH MUCH MUCH better behaved), walks up to Arty and starts petting him, and Arty doesn't bat an eye.

Then later, I have Arty and am holding the leash. Nice and loose, not tight at all(the leash was not tight in the previous case iether), as I know a tight leash can cause dogs to get "tight" based on how we are around them. I am talking to this kids grandfather. The kid has a waterballoon in his hand and starts walking towards Arty and lifts it over his head to throw it at him. The look in Arty's eye said it all....he was not happy. He was watching him like a hawk. As soon as we both saw the kid coming towards him like this, we both told him to go away(not like that, but told him to not do that). So he started to walk another direction. Then, as I am talking to his grandfather again...takes the water balloon and touches Arty on the back by the base of the tail with it. Again...Arty gives a little growl and a quick snap. Again...if he wanted to bite him....he would have.

Could it be something as simple as Arty just sensed something about this kid that triggered this? There was a worker in the hotel we were staying at while our house was being fixed that Arty showed a similar behavior to...didn't growl, but was more "mouthy" with him. No bites...but was not as friendly with him as others. Had the same kind of look in his eye. This was an adult though.

A couple of my other cousins came to pet Arty, quicker then I would have liked, and Arty had a cautious look on his face...but then settled down and gave way to tail wagging and such.

Bottom line...is it just something about this kid? I am not taking chances anyway, and am looking to bring a Behaviorist in for Arty(if anything just to see what actions we can take to calm him down around the baby and a couple other small issues), but I'm torn on this. Of course I am concerned about Arty's actions, but I can't help but think it was a guarding instinct from this kid because of how he is. I have no doubt this kid will end up on the wrong side of the law.

Thanks for reading this long...long post...and offering any insight.

bayleighmom · #2 10-03-2006, 10:40 AM

Has Arty ever been around this child before? Maybe the child did something to Arty before? Every one says how dogs are supposed to be good judges of character...maybe Arty simply didn't like this child! Haven't you ever met someone that you knew you didn't care for right from the start?

Or maybe he was guarding your wife. The child overstepped his boundaries (in Arty's eye) and he sent a warning.

I know Bayleigh is like this. There is one kid in our neighborhood that she absolutely hates. I have never worried about her biting before until this kid! She is cautious around our other neighborhood kids and will warm up to them. But not this kid.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. Especially since Arty was fine with everyone else.

**gmacleod** · #3 10-03-2006, 11:28 AM

I think it's a pretty clear case of the dog knowing something unpleasant was about to happen, and giving a clear warning to back the heck off. And that's actually fair enough too.

It's also a good thing. We all tend to get the idea that the dog should never growl or air-snap. Some people even go so far as to say the dog "has no right" ever to growl or snap at a person. Well, I think that's utter idiocy - and potentially dangerous to boot.

The dog has every right to give warnings. Problems only come when we ignore those warnings (or, of course, when they're misplaced - such as a dog guarding the couch). But this wasn't misplaced, was it? You know as well as Arty did that without some sort of restraint, said kid was going to do something highly unpleasant. And so, your Arty warned the kid to back off. An air snap IS a warning. A progression on from growling and lip curling. Next would come a lunge/air snap. Finally a bite.

It should be patently obvious by now why a dog that gives warnings is a good thing to have. And you should listen to them - remove the kid from his proximity, or remove the dog from the kid. Because if warnings never get listened to, or worse, the dog gets punished for giving warnings - what do you think you get left with? A dog that puts up with crap until breaking point and then "suddenly" bites, that's what. Not a desirable situation at all.

Anyway, the bottom line on all of that is that you shouldn't be worried just because the dog growled/air snapped. But it's also a clear indication that there would be limits to what he'd put up with (well, every dog has limits). I don't imagine for a moment you'd ever leave the dog unattended with any kid (most especially that one!) - but you've got fair warning there that it wouldn't be a wise thing to do.

Arty · #4 10-03-2006, 12:11 PM

Arty has never met this kid before.

I wouldn't leave any dog alone with a kid anyways. Arty is always under supervision regardless if it's just other adults or kids around.

Something I thought of as I was out on lunch buying a new bag of their food though. I've read and believe that dogs pick up on our senses and attitude. Could part of it be that because my wife was nervous about the kid it rubbed off on Arty? Sort of like holding the leash tight when he is checking out another dog?

lhsdavis · #5 10-03-2006, 12:46 PM

I think he is just sensing something about the kid...noah is very sensitive to stuff like that. One incident was at the park, Noah is very good with young children, and there were a bunch of toddlers having a birthday party at the park. The dogs were in seventh heaven all those little faces to lick, and the parents were great, a couple of them have been around boxers before and know they are great. After we left there, we walked across a bridge, noah, ashley, my 4 year old daughter, and myself. THere was another child across the bridge, a boy about 9-10, and he was staring in paticular at noah. Noah just started acting funny, I told the boy it would be best if he didnt pet the dogs as noah was acting funny and I didnt want anything to happen. Well the boy just kept standing there and staring, and Noah just did not like him. I walked them up to the play area for my daughter to play, and luckly I had a good hold on their leashes because that crazy boy snuck up behind me and the next thing I knew Noah was lunging and barking at him. The boy took off, between Noah and the look I gave him, and didnt try anything again. I just took it as something not right about the kid.
Another instance was when the pest control people I used hired another guy, and usually Noah will watch them but hes never agressive. They could even come over and spray when I wasnt there. Well there was something about this guy Noah didnt like, I ended up holding his collar the whole time he was spraying. I did call the pest control and told them it would best if they sent someone else next time, and talking to them a few weeks later, i found out another woman had called because she didnt like the way he was eyeing her house/area and asking questions. Well come to find out, he was stealing supplies etc and they ended up firing him.
So I have come to conclusion that they can just tell when someone isnt right, or sense things.

Kathie11 · #6 10-03-2006, 01:31 PM

Similar thing happened to me. Louie loves kids, he very gently with but one day I went to the park and a kid started approaching me. For some reason I didn't feel comfortable with this kid so I tried to go around him but the kid caught up and before I got Louie is a sit position this kid was going to pet him. Louie jumped on him and growled. No teeth but just scared the kid. The kid's father came by and appoligized for his son but I was shaken up because I've never seen him act that way. It hasn't happened since. I think Arty probably sensed that your wife was nervous.

I wouldn't worry if this was an isolated incident.

tianthai · #7 10-03-2006, 07:51 PM

I am no expert in dog training but I do love dogs dearly. I grew up with dogs and my life is always with dogs. Dogs always sense if someone bad comes near them. This horrible child deserves a "timeout". I cannot stand spoiled children and I usually never let any children who I don't know touch my dogs. I have to make sure that the children are very nice to my dog, then with my permittion they can pet him.

When I was very young, I used to do horrible things to our dogs, such as cutting his whiskas or tattoo (shave his hair off) his back. Then I was put in "timeout" for months by my father for doing those things. He would never want that to happen again. He was right.

Oscar's mom

DevilorAngel · #8 10-04-2006, 07:22 AM

There is a little boy in our neighborhood, he's about 3 or 4 that Angel hates too. Now, I have a 5 year old daughter and there are other kids around that age that come to the fence to play with my daughter everyday. But the FIRST time she saw this kid, her hair stood up on her back and she barked and growled at him. That was actually the very first time we heard her growl (this was about 3 weeks ago). The kid thought it was hilarious and we have now seen that he LOVES to tease the dog, barking at her, bouncing a ball against our fence... Apparently she sensed his nature, I'm sure Arty felt the same way.

xenaprincess · #9 10-04-2006, 09:22 AM

I have to believe that Arty sensed some "no good" in this kid. Animals are very good judges of character. Arty's actions very well could have been induced by the tightening of the leash and the anxious feelings your wife may have sent out, (my Spirit's like that too), but I would still keep Arty away from this one.

Sadly though, this child you said is only about 2 or 3?? He is not old enough to understand the limits, BUT, he is old enough to learn them. Just like pits...this kid will be labelled because of irresponsible "owners"..the parents! Boy, family eh!! Thank God reunions are only once a year/couple of years! I know in my clan, there are a few that I'm happy I only have to see every few years! Funny...if it's an issue with the kids not getting along, I've biten my tongue a few times and let it blow over...kids are kids and can usually speak for themselves. BUT...when it involves my dogs, I'm right there defending them, advocating for them, and promoting them!! Don't mess with my dogs!