Breeding for working ability and temperament.

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by Renee&Jake

I have no problems with SchH training - I love the sport. But I do have very large concerns that if Boxers develop the reputation of the Doberman, (as an example) than they Breed Ban hits us all a little closer to home. In Germany, most dogs bite are from GSD's (#1 in SchH), but all APBT and most Mastiffs must be muzzled in public.

If you think things like that can't happen here, ask a Chow Chow owner what they pay for homeowners insurance, or why that Doberman who passed TT, and did such a beautiful job testing for Therapy Dogs International will NEVER be allowed to participate.

-Renee

BSL, well that's a topic for another discussion, but since you bring it up to explain why more boxers aren't trained or tested I would like to comment on it.
As you correctly state BSL have nothing to do with the shutzhund training (btw, gsd are at the top of almost every bite statistics not only in germany, but it has to do with the popularity, check out the akc numbers, and poor breeding of fear biters, and nothing to do with shutzhund training), if that was the case gsd, boxer and mal would have been banned in germany, and in north america gsd are most popular shutzhund dogs, so they would also have been banned, yet this isn't the case. BSL has everything to do with stupidity and ignorance on the part of owners, unethical breeders and politicians who have no clue about canine behaviour.
BSL hitting close to home - depends what you call home in this case, if you are talking about boxer breed as beeing home, true, it's very common to think if it ain't my breed than I don't care, it's just than your breed could be next. If the "home" is your country, bsl is alive and well in many parts of north america.
IMO if more strict breeding rules and requirements have been implemented and followed, less accidents would have happened.
Peter

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by Cubby

Amen. We have a problem with breed regulation here, but I don't think we're a lost cause for the breed just yet. As JulieM would say, "Education is Paramount" and nowhere is this more true than in the breed practices among the "less-than-reputable" breeders in the US and Canada.

Cubby, I believe that we can all learn from poeple like you!
The breed is not a lost cause, but to think that all is fine and great is IMO a mistake and much more should be done to preserve the temperament and working abilities of the breed.
Congratulation on a great job you and your companion do. The thing is that even dogs who don't come from ethical breeders turn out to be great dogs with great temperament and drives, that includes rescues and mixed breeds, but I would like to see more of these goods results being planned and not just being guessing game or beeing lucky.
Peter

[Renee&Jake]

IMO if more strict breeding rules and requirements have been implemented and followed, less accidents would have happened.

And how do you propose to change the entire North American Conformation system, it's registries and parent clubs, to follow suit with the Boxer Klub of Munich. And I'm assuming that if Boxers must pass ZTP-type tests, then so will all dogs of all groups - Sporting, Herding, Toys, will all have to have some type of breed suitable test in place.

I *do* train my Boxers, in Obedience, Agility, and Tracking, and as far as I'm concerned they are working dogs. I'm certain either will take a sleeve and release with glee. So I'm certainly interested in knowing, what you have in mind, or who you plan to contact. I'm not sure the AKC/CKC will be real thrilled with the drop in revenue, but I'm sure you must have a pretty solid plan.

-Renee

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by Renee&Jake
And how do you propose to change the entire North American Conformation system, it's registries and parent clubs, to follow suit with the Boxer Klub of Munich. And I'm assuming that if Boxers must pass ZTP-type tests, then so will all dogs of all groups - Sporting, Herding, Toys, will all have to have some type of breed suitable test in place.

I *do* train my Boxers, in Obedience, Agility, and Tracking, and as far as I'm concerned they are working dogs. I'm certain either will take a sleeve and release with glee. So I'm certainly interested in knowing, what you have in mind, or who you plan to contact. I'm not sure the AKC/CKC will be real thrilled with the drop in revenue, but I'm sure you must have a pretty solid plan.

-Renee

I sense some sarcasm and anger in your post, I don't see a need for that.
But yes I would like to see many breeds to have stricter requirements implemented, and I would love to see akc/ckc revenues decline by 95%, and I am sure shelters would share my view.
Peter
Peter

[rumsgirl]

Renee&Jake, I am a Chow Chow owner and my homeowners insurance is no different because I own one. As far as the rest of this conversation goes I don't have anything to say except I love Schutzhund and it isn't all about biting. To get a title in it means you have an all around greatly mannered dog and obiedient.

[JulieM]

Originally posted by Homerhomer
I sense some sarcasm and anger in your post, I don't see a need for that.
But yes I would like to see many breeds to have stricter requirements implemented, and I would love to see akc/ckc revenues decline by 95%, and I am sure shelters would share my view.
Peter
Peter

I don't think Renee is being so much sarcastic as she is expressing her frustration at the many people who bitch and moan that NA Boxers are inferior to German Boxers, yet do nothing about it other than bitch and moan. As the song goes -"Don't talk at all! Show me! Never do I ever want to hear another word. There isn't one I haven't heard."

Oh, wait, maybe that's *my* frustration....

Seriously, though - what are you personally doing to improve the temperaments/working abilities in the North American Boxer? It's one thing to lament the defiencies you perceive, and another thing entirely do do something about them.

And - as much as people malign the AKC, they are a non-profit organization. Decreasing their revenues means decreasing their programs - like the Canine Health Foundation, the Companion Animal Recovery Program, Canine Health Online, Educational Seminars (breed-specific and general - handling, breeding, structure, movement, etc.), the Canine Support & Relief Fund (for SAR dogs), the Canine Good Citizen Program, etc. etc. The AKC, for all their flaws, actually does more than just register dogs and put on conformation shows.

[JulieM]

Originally posted by rumsgirl
As far as the rest of this conversation goes I don't have anything to say except I love Schutzhund and it isn't all about biting. To get a title in it means you have an all around greatly mannered dog and obiedient.

But you can have a "greatly mannered dog and obiedient [sic]" without doing Schutzhund. The thing that sets Schutzhund apart from Obedience and Tracking is the bitework.

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by JulieM
I don't think Renee is being so much sarcastic as she is expressing her frustration at the many people who bitch and moan that NA Boxers are inferior to German Boxers, yet do nothing about it other than bitch and moan. As the song goes -"Don't talk at all! Show me! Never do I ever want to hear another word. There isn't one I haven't heard."

Oh, wait, maybe that's *my* frustration....

My appologies, I am new to the board and thought that this was a place to express opinions and observations, but it looks like to me when someone's opinion is not of the popular kins it becams bitching and moaning. And if you read my post carefully you will notice that I don't bitch and moan about dogs but about people (breeders).

Originally posted by JulieM

Seriously, though - what are you personally doing to improve the temperaments/working abilities in the North American Boxer? It's one thing to lament the defiencies you perceive, and another thing entirely do do something about them.

Nothing, I don't even have a boxer, what I am doing right now is to try to determine if boxer would be a good choice for me. However doing nothing is better than what many have done, which is breed animals that don't carry the characteristics of the breed.

Originally posted by JulieM

And - as much as people malign the AKC, they are a non-profit organization. Decreasing their revenues means decreasing their programs - like the Canine Health Foundation, the Companion Animal Recovery Program, Canine Health Online, Educational Seminars (breed-specific and general - handling, breeding, structure, movement, etc.), the Canine Support & Relief Fund (for SAR dogs), the Canine Good Citizen Program, etc. etc. The AKC, for all their flaws, actually does more than just register dogs and put on conformation shows.

Ofcourse, saying that akc is all bad is wrong, however a big part of their revenues comes from puppy mills (oops my apologies, they are called commercial breeders), byb and just about anyone who will send em a fee. You are correct in saying that they aren't just registry, if that was the case they wouldn't fight against the puppy protection act. But even their registry sucks, they set rules that are ridiculous, accept breedings from 7 months old parents, dogs that are sick and aggressive are welcome to breed, and you don't even have to be 100% certain who is the sire. Pet shop sales of puppies are also just fine, infact many of pet shop high priced puppies are akc registerd, hey the more the better.
Peter

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by JulieM
But you can have a "greatly mannered dog and obiedient [sic]" without doing Schutzhund. The thing that sets Schutzhund apart from Obedience and Tracking is the bitework.

Sounds like my dog, obiedient and well mannered. Just too bad that he comes from a breeder who is breeding 50 puppies every year for show and family companion only(akc would actually prefer 150 or more out of him), was dumped 3 times in the first 6 months of his life, would have became a fear biter if wasn't in the right hands, can't open an umbrella in front of him without causing him a stress.....
Other than that everything is just fine and dundee, and I am sure my dog is an exception....
Peter

[JulieM]

Originally posted by Homerhomer
My appologies, I am new to the board and thought that this was a place to express opinions and observations, but it looks like to me when someone's opinion is not of the popular kins it becams bitching and moaning. And if you read my post carefully you will notice that I don't bitch and moan about dogs but about people (breeders).

If you will read my post carefully, you will notice I did not say you were the one bitching and moaning. Believe it or not, this is not the first time this topic has come up.

Nothing, I don't even have a boxer, what I am doing right now is to try to determine if boxer would be a good choice for me. However doing nothing is better than what many have done, which is breed animals that don't carry the characteristics of the breed.

Maybe - but the way to effect change is not to do nothing. As a potential puppy buyer who feels that the German breeding system is better than the North American one, you have several choices. You can import a dog from Germany. You can buy a puppy from a breeder who imports their dogs from Germany. You can buy a puppy from a breeder who puts their dogs through the same type of testing that dogs in Germany go through. You can buy a puppy from a breeder who does Schutzhund. You can buy a puppy from a breeder who does appropriate health testing, shows their dogs in both conformation and performance events, and has generations of dogs titled in both areas who have also gone on to be service dogs. In the process, you will be letting breeders know that people are looking for dogs bred more to the German way of things - and some of them might actually appreciate that.

But even their registry sucks, they set rules that are ridiculous, accept breedings from 7 months old parents, dogs that are sick and aggressive are welcome to breed, and you don't even have to be 100% certain who is the sire.

In some breeds 7 months may be acceptable. And you may not have to be 100% certain who the sire is, but if they check you'd better have guessed right.

However - your issue is not so much with the AKC as it is with the parent breed clubs - they are the ones that set the breed standard and that establish a Code of Ethics which includes age, health, and temperament requirements (if any) for breeding.

Sounds like my dog, obiedient and well mannered. Just too bad that he comes from a breeder who is breeding 50 puppies every year for show and family companion only(akc would actually prefer 150 or more out of him), was dumped 3 times in the first 6 months of his life, would have became a fear biter if wasn't in the right hands, can't open an umbrella in front of him without causing him a stress.....

Well, that comes down to the importance of the public being educated before making a purchase. A poorly bred dog from an irresponsible breeder is not what you should be basing your comparisons on - there are poorly bred dogs in Germany, too, that don't go through the breed warden. (I'm curious how you know what the AKC would prefer, though - did they tell you?)

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by JulieM
You can buy a puppy from a breeder who puts their dogs through the same type of testing that dogs in Germany go through. You can buy a puppy from a breeder who does Schutzhund. You can buy a puppy from a breeder who does appropriate health testing, shows their dogs in both conformation and performance events, and has generations of dogs titled in both areas who have also gone on to be service dogs. In the process, you will be letting breeders know that people are looking for dogs bred more to the German way of things - and some of them might actually appreciate that.

That's what I will do.

Originally posted by JulieM

(I'm curious how you know what the AKC would prefer, though - did they tell you?)

Yes, they told me that by taking their stand in the fight against the puppy protection act.
Peter

[Renee&Jake]

Originally posted by JulieM
I don't think Renee is being so much sarcastic as she is expressing her frustration at the many people who bitch and moan that NA Boxers are inferior to German Boxers, yet do nothing about it other than bitch and moan.

I couldn't have said it better myself - Thank you.

Originally posted by Homerhomer
I sense some sarcasm and anger in your post, I don't see a need for that.

And if you choose only to voice your opinion, and not a solution that's fine too. There is no sarcasm in my post, I am being realistic. And because I choose to work my Boxers, and because I support the breeders carefully breeding them, I know that I and those I associate with *are* preserving and improving the breed. It is a little harder than doing nothing, but my Boxers are worth it.

-Renee