Bull Bashing

Julie, in general I tend to agree with you, at least on a philosophical level. However, I think that it's clear that genetics play a very large part in behavioral tendencies. For instance, a well-bred dog of a herding breed will take much less training to herd, than will a show-bred collie-a breed which used to be esteemed for its herding abilities. Those instincts have largely been bred out of today's show collies, just as stable temperaments have been to a large extent bred out of today's common pit bulls. This is obviously due to a combination of breeders and owners aiming for a similar goal, and being tremendously irresponsible.

[Rebelle's Mom]

I'm not jumping in here to voice an opinion...just wanted to share something related to this thread that I heard on the radio a couple days past.

I think it was in Sweden that it happened. A Pit Bull was ferociously attacked by.....a 7 pound Poodle!!!
Both owners were walking their dogs, supposedly the Poodle and Pit greeted each other, and the poodle proceeded to attack the pit, biting, snarling, breaking skin. The pits owner tried to intervene and protect her dog and she too was bitten by this poodle. Both she and her dog required stitches.

[Robyn]

I really don't know what to add to this topic but I wanted to share this.

When my neice was three, she was bitten in the face two times by her family's miniature pinsher. Once extremely close to her eye, in the soft skin directly below and the lower canines pierced her nose. The second bite was lower on her face, around her upper lip. She needed to be seen and treated by a plastic surgeon. It still breaks my heart when I think about her and it makes me extremely sad that the dog was euthanized because of this situation. It really was an all around bad thing. However, I shudder to think what would have happened had it been an even bigger dog.

[JoAnn]

Iam not very fond of Pitbulls, then I am also terrified of Rotties and Chows. We have a 9 month old Pitbull that lives across the street, she gets out of the yard often and comes over expecting to play with my Boxers. I have not seen one aggressive streak in her, her owners are very loving and when she gets out they verbally scold her and carry her home, I still worry though that when she gets mature her attitude might change and some child may end up gettting bit. Then there are the teenage idiots that I see at the park, each of them owns a Pitbull, they have these heavy chains around their necks, and they encourage the dogs into fights, they will let each dog get close enough to snap, then yank them back before they can bite. This terrified me so much that I quit my park walks for a bit, they even tried this technique with Samson (Boxer) and Brodie (Shep/Malamute) one day when we were walking by, with my 116 pound Brodie this was not a good idea, he charged at the dogs, which backed off then let the owner know he was boss here. I think it all depends on the owner, then again my Samson is very people/dog aggressive and we had nothing to do with it, it came as an instinct, I just make sure I take the necessary precautions when we go out.

[JulieM]

Julie, in general I tend to agree with you, at least on a philosophical level. However, I think that it's clear that genetics play a very large part in behavioral tendencies.

I don't think I ever denied this; in fact I think the main point I've been trying to make is that irresponsible breeders are not considering temperament (or are purposely choosing aggressive or unstable ones) when the breed.

For instance, a well-bred dog of a herding breed will take much less training to herd, than will a show-bred collie-a breed which used to be esteemed for its herding abilities. Those instincts have largely been bred out of today's show collies, just as stable temperaments have been to a large extent bred out of today's common pit bulls.

I am not going to revisit the working vs. show dog debate However, I will reiterate that I don't necessarily believe instincts have been bred out of breeds - I just think that many times the dogs are never allowed to use and develop those instincts. How many "show-bred" collies have even seen a herd of sheep? Not being given the opportunity to perform a task does not equal inability to perform it.

Similarly, I don't think a stable temperament has been bred out of the pit bull - I just think that unstable temperaments are being propagated.

This is obviously due to a combination of breeders and owners aiming for a similar goal, and being tremendously irresponsible.

Well, I'll agree 100% there!

Julie

[LPratt]

I have not been on the board for awhile and was suprised at interesting topic Mike and Nala brought to the table. I can say that I have owned 3 pitbulls at separate times and they were lovely dogs. All three were incredibly stable temperment, loyal, loving, athletic and great with other dogs and children. That being said, I do not allow Angus any contact with any pit regardless of how friendly the owner claims their dog is. Here is why:

While I love the breeds positives; courage, intelligence, athleticism. They are dogs that are bred (by humans) to fight other dogs and therefore have high animal aggressiveness and high prey drive. Unfortunately, the startling majority of pitbull owners are stupid, testosterone deficient idiots who think that their dog is a testament to their manliness (women can have this too, although 'womanliness' doesn't apply). They are uneducated to RESPONSIBLE ownership of these animals and therefore the damaging and tragic actions of a few people have really stigmatized these animals for EVERYONE.

I have no idea how an individual has treated their pitbull, and what actions they deem appropriate behavior...I will not use my beautiful Angus as a litmus test for their aptitude. I volunteered at a shelter outside of L.A. and it was appalling what people would do to these poor pits, feed them gun powder to make them nuts, razor off their ears to skull level, keep them in the dark for weeks at a time and withold food from them, all to make them more aggressive. Absolutely sickening. I would be aggressive too.

If anyone allows their dog contact with a pitbull, I would seriously consider buying or making yourself a breaking stick. These breaking sticks are the only effective way to get a pit off of another dog with minimal damage. You are more likely to further inflict injury on the other dog to try and pull it away. (You are also more likely to be bit in a dog fight by a another breed than a pit, since they do not snap and pull back like most breeds)

All a breaking stick is a broomstick with a wedge or 'v' sharpened into one end, if the dog locks its jaw on another you shove it in their mouth and wedge it open, then pull your dog away. Much easier with 2 people, but do-able with one.

I would NEVER have had any of my pits out without one. It is too irresponsible. While I think these are not bad dogs and rather possess many traits that I admire in the Boxer, the liability and responsibility of owning this type of dog is too great.

I think that when we look to vilify these dogs as monsters we should first look at those who made them that way.

My long 2 cents.

Leezah & Angus

[Lisa M]

I couldn't find the Pit Bull or American Pit Bull Terrior on the AKC Breed list. Maybe they don't recognize them? I did find this from the Staffordshire Bull Terrior Club's page, I know it isn't identical, but it does talk about "bull and terrier" ownership and this was the closest breed I could find to the Pit Bull. This quote really illustrates the point I was trying to make:

"Staffords are exuberant, impulsive, sometimes bull-headed ... and surprisingly sensitive. A trainer must learn to be persistent, patient, and firm. ... It helps to maintain control in unexpected situations. Because of their impulsive natures, the other cardinal rule of Bull and Terrier ownership is "always think ahead." An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! When it comes to strange - and especially aggressive - dogs, few Staffords are complete pacifists. Most will not back down if they are attacked or menaced, and some just don't get along with strange dogs, period. This is a physically and mentally tenacious breed; be prepared!
...
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What are the differences between the American Staffordshire Terrier, a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, and an American Pit Bull Terrier?
....
D) Temperament - All Bull and Terrier breeds have a natural love of people, although that love often does not extend to other members of the canine kingdom outside of the family circle. Staffords may possess the strongest "prey drive" and the superior ability to focus; they are also an "emotional
barometer" par excellence, very sensitive to psychic atmosphere in the home. But remember that every individual is different and each of these dogs shares a common ancestry."


Julie, I wasn't trying to impy that pits should be muzzeled at all times or that I support breed bans. I personally feel that our neighbor had a pit with a great temporment, he just knew the breed and what it was capable of. It seems to me that other pit owners I've met feel the same way. It is a good breed, but as with any breed we must understand it's history and behavior and we as owners must behave accordingly. As far as your statement that a German Shepherd or Rottie or any other large breed could send one of my dogs to the vet, Sumi has been in a fight with a German Shepherd, both were fighting and holding their ground and my neighbor and I were able to seperate them easily and no harm was done to either dog, I don't think this would have been the case had it been a pit bull. Casper's one run in at the park with a pit was fortunately broken up right away and the pit's owner had to lift his dog up over his head and carry him out of the park to get him to stop fighting. It was after that that I decided that my old neighbor really knew what he was doing when he kept his pit isolated from strangers, kids and other dogs. I have since resolved to not let my dogs play with pits regardless of the temperment of the individual.

As far as the statement about 70% of the bites that have caused a death to children meaning that parents must educate their children how to behave around dogs, yes, more education would be great. But let's be realistic - children and dogs need to be supervised. Most people don't even bother to take their dogs to basic obedience do you think we'll be able to get them to keep their kids from pulling on ears, screaming, or running around dogs? A loose dog running toward a child will most likely cause the child to run away, many breeds - especially those with a high prey drive - will instinctively chase them. Children can't defend themselves in the manner that adults can, that is why so many more children than adults die from dog bites. (I use this example because most cases that I've heard of where a child has died as a result of a dog attack (regardless of breed) it has been a loose "outside dog" (or pack of dogs) escaped from a yard.) At any rate, children no matter what they are told to do are not responsible. My parents told me never to hit Brandy, but did I care about that when I found out that she chewed the face off of my beautiful dolly with the green dress? No, I went right up to her and smashed her over the head with that doll and said "My dad says that you're a bitch, Brandy, and you really are!" Brandy was a boxer so I was pretty lucky, she just tolerated my abusive behavior. Was I bad? Yes. Did I deserve to be bitten? Maybe. Should I have been killed? I don't think so.

So I'm gonna be pretty stubborn and I still think pit owners should keep their dogs out of the dog park and away from strange kids. I also feel that pits shouldn't be left unattended in the yard. These are the things that lead to "unexpected situations" mentioned above in my opinion. In the meantime while I'm waiting for that to happen (yeah, right) I'll just keep my dogs and my family away from them, thank you very much.

[Lisa M]

OK, we found a link from the staffordshire terrior club's page to the attached quote. This is obviously from someone who knows a lot more about pits than I do and I think it speaks for why the breed should not be changed as some people discussed here and what the breed is about. And it does, in my view, demonstrate why a pit in a dog fight is a more serious opponent than other breeds.

The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) FAQ
Maintained by: MAC -- Internet: mbur@nyx.net
USmail: PO BOX 966, Greenbelt, MD 20768
…
As stated in the introduction, there are several different "breeds" of dogs that are refered to as "Pit Bulls" by the general public. Primarily, these are the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. … In general, however, ASTs have lost most of the gameness of their pit fighting ancestors, while at least some well-bred lines of APBTs have maintained this quality unaltered. Dogs of both breeds, if well-bred, have similar human- friendly dispositions. ….Like any other breed of dog, the key areas of focus for ensuring a happy, well adjusted American Pit Bull Terrier as a pet are: owner education, proper breeding, socialization, and training. A break down in any one or more of these areas could lead to problems down the road. … The APBT is, contrary to popular belief, very human-friendly and will not naturally be aggressive towards humans. The APBT is, however, very loyal and eagar to please, so that if an owner wants a dog to be aggressive toward humans and reinforces this behaviour from an early age, the dog will most likely be aggressive towards humans as an adult. … Many people equate or confuse aggressivness towards other dogs with aggressivness towards humans. … animal-aggressiveness is an entirely different thing from human-aggressiveness. …

What exactly is "gameness"?

Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding. It is what allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours, in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration, and exhaustion. But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude of pit bulls toward any type of challenge… Generally speaking, a game dog is an emotionally stable, easy-going dog, especially good with kids. Gameness should not be confused with aggressiveness. …Aggressiveness will propell a dog into a fight but will only sustain him for the first few minutes. … a game dog will fight until it wins or dies trying, and will keep going as long as necessary. Gameness is an inner quality of pit bulls. There is no way you can tell by looking at a pit bull whether it is deeply game or not. …If you want a nice pit, you're generally better off getting one that has been game-bred. These dogs represent the truest exemplars of all the best qualities in the breed.
…
Many APBT owners like myself have no interest whatever in fighting our dogs, yet we appreciate the quality of gameness in our breed. I am quite content to know that just about any APBT, even one with only mediocre gameness as far as APBT's go, is still going to be far more game--that is, far more courageous and determined to succeed against any challenge he may confront--than the gamest individuals of just about any other breed. Thus, without ever having to match your dog against another, you can be confident that your dog is game simply by virtue of the fact of being an American Pit Bull Terrier. Of course not all pit bulls are equally game. ... If you plotted a distribution graph, you would get a classic bell curve, with a handful of dogs exhibiting dead gameness, another handful of dogs who are afraid of their own shadow, and the bulk of the dogs concentrated around the average in between these two extremes. If you then plotted the bell curves of gameness for other breeds, you would find that there is little overlap between the APBT's bell curve and those of all the rest. … All dog owners think there is something unique and superlative about their own dog's breed. Gameness is what I, as an APBT chauvanist, think is so special about pit bulls. Actually, let me modify that. What I love best about my own dog is how cute and cuddly and friendly she is with everyone. She's a dog I am proud to bring anywhere. She makes everyone laugh with her insane kissing compulsion. But these two qualities are not unrelated. As I mentioned in my previous post, gameness seems to go hand in hand with a lovable, outgoing, licky disposition toward people. …
It's important for people to understand the paradoxical truth that she, like all the other nice, human-loving pit bulls out there, is the way she is BECAUSE OF--NOT IN SPITE OF--her breed's history of selective breeding for fighting purposes. … From the old-time breeders' point of view, the gentle qualities were an absolutely indispensable safety precaution to be bred into a fighting dog, since no dog could be fought if it couldn't be safely handled by its owner during a pit contest. These breeders bred for a type that was extremely easy-going and docile around people and would NEVER think of biting a friendly hand, even amid the fury of a fight. A well-bred pit bull is so reliable in this respect that even if he is badly hurt in an automobile accident and is in extreme pain, he won't snap at his owner who tries to pick him up--unlike most dogs in that situation. …Whether true or not, it was an article of faith among old-time breeders that a human-aggressive dog simply could not be dead game. In any case, such a dog would have been unsuitable for fighting purposes: no one would volunteer to be its handler or to referee the match. As a result of this careful breeding history, the APBT is an extremely easy-going, human-loving dog. … Unfortunately,the only activity that really tests the full extent of a dog's gameness is pit contests. It's a pity that this is the case. Personally, I don't much like the idea of dog fighting, especially when money is involved and takes precedence over the well-being of the dogs. If I knew of another method--say, a DNA test--which could determine gameness, I'd be happily promoting that method right now. … As a result, I'm left in the rather hypocritical position of celebrating a canine virtue that is only made possible by a human vice. So be it. I still prefer game dogs. … Understandably, breeders only want to choose the very best exemplars of the breed in their breeding programs. If you breed APBTs without regard for their degree of gameness, their gameness will gradually be lost with each succeeding generation. This is essentially what has occurred with Am Staffs and Staffy Bulls, which for many generations have been selectively bred for appearance rather than for the invisible inner quality of gameness. (Furthermore, I should add, less than scrupulous selection of all these breeds also risks the loss of the breed's excellent dispostion toward people.) In order to maintain a high degree of the desired qualities, a breeder must carefully select only those dogs that have them in the highest degree. Gameness was an extremely difficult trait to develop; it took more than a century of tiny, incremental improvements through selective breeding to produce today's APBT. Though achieved only with great difficulty, gameness is easily lost, sometimes even in the hands of good breeders.
…

THE FIGHT:

There comes a time in the life of every dog, be it a small terrier or the powerful APBT, when it will get into some sort of a scrap. Those of you who frequent dog shows for the APBT will no doubt eventually be witness to dogs getting loose and starting a fight. So, what happens when they are serious? Well, each dog will bite the other, take hold and start to shake its head punishingly. It is so serious that in most cases nothing you do will cause the dog/bitch to give up that precious hold! Nothing! Choking, shocking, etc...It just doesn't matter! … If you're around the breed long enough you will eventually witness an accidental fight and it was one of these occasions where I was introduced to the "Breaking Stick". I was visiting Howard one day when one of his bitches, (in heat), got out of her kennel, ran over to one of the other bitches on Howard's yard and YEEHA, they started to fight. Howard calmly walked into the house, came out with what looked like a contoured door stop and tossed it to me. I said, "what the heck is this thing?" He had one too. He said "it's a breaking stick" and that I should quit talking and get my ass over to where the two bitches were trying to kill each other. With a 5 second tutorial from Howard I was able to help him break the dogs apart in about 10 or 15 seconds and that, my friends, is considered slow! I became a believer in breaking sticks from that point on.

[kt]

Just a little information from England regarding Pitbull's

we had some bad experiences over here children being bitten quite badly so now it is against the law to own/breed a Pitbull. - but of course they still are.

We have a dangerous dog act (which covers many breed one of which is a Pitbull) which basically allows the police to come and take your dog if they think it is a pitbull - then you have to go to court to prove your dog is either not a pitbull or not a threat to the general public - this can take up to 12 months the dog is impounded and the owners are only allow limited access - if your dog is found to be a danger to the general public then that dog will be destroyed. If they have made a mistake which often happens i.e. your dog is a mix breed and looks like a pitball but the courts find your dog innocent then the dog is allowed home - but if this has taken a long time to come to court then the only thing that suffers is the dog which as been impounded away from it's family.


Over here in England this breed and many others have been the victim of interbreeding and bad ownership.

I don't know any pitball's but I would not be happy for my dog to play with it unless I knew the owner and the dog really well.

kt

[kt]

http://www.agilitynet.com/magazine/n...indanger.shtml

This is a link to some information about what is happening 'bull' breeds in Europe - mainly Germany and France!

I have heard that Boxers are the next on the list for Germany !


kt