We've got crate issues

[LovinRuby]

Hello! This is my first post (except for my introduction). My hubby and I are the happy parents of a 15 week old little fawn girl. We just love her! She is really very good in general. Other people who have come over say they are amazed at how well she does for such a young puppy. She always does sit/down when we ask. She will even stay (most times) when we walk away and leave her sight. We are making good progress with the leash taking walks. (We've only been at that for about two weeks now, taking real walks out in the neighborhood. Before that it was just working with her in the house or in the yard.) She is doing really well with the housetraining and rarely messes in the house. When she does it is in front of the door like we missed her telling us she had to go. Even the chewing isn't a major issue. She has an obsession with my husband's sport shoes, but there are so many other things that she could get into that she doesn't.

However, we have major crate issues! It is so not good. Since we first brought her home she has hated the crate. She cries/barks/howls and messes EVERY time she is in it. Now both my husband and I work, so it is necessary that she be crated. She is usually crated from 8:20am to about 5:05pm, but my husband does come home at 12:05 everyday to let her out for twenty minutes. She is generally crated for four days per week as my husband usually works four 10-hours shifts per week. Anyway, she gets worked up and messes EVERY time she is put in there. I always make she that she has eliminated (both versions) before putting her in there in the mornings, but by noon she has messed (both versions). My husband cleans it up while he's home at lunch and takes her outside again, but by the time he gets home at 5:00 she had messes again. It doesn't matter if she is in there 30 minutes or 4 hours, she will mess. We can't even run to the grocery store and back without having to clean up a mess when we get back.

And, as if the crying and messing weren't bad enough, she actually bloodied the pads of her feet trying to get out one day. It was awful. This was almost four weeks ago. Up to that point we had her just in the regular crate. (Wire 24"W X 48"D X 24"H) We had sectioned it off so she just had half of it to use. The problem was that she just stood up on her back legs frantically pawing at the door to get out. Even her back pads were rubbed raw, I assume from jumping non-stop.

Anyway, we didn't want to put her back in there then because we were afraid she would hurt herself more. So, we then tried just leaving her in the kitchen. Now, our kitchen and family room are one big room, with the family room being carpeted, so this was no easy task to try to confine her to the kitchen. We rearranged the furniture, backing the sofa up to the edge of the linoleum floor and putting the crate next to the sofa. So, all that was left was to block off a three foot opening. We already had a baby gate up in the other opening to the kitchen. Well, we tried for four days to keep here in the kitchen, but she is Houdini and got out no matter what we did. She got up over the back of the sofa. She climbed right over the baby gate. She wasn't destructive when she was loose, but she did mess on the carpet in several places.

So, we went back to the crate.... This time I took a rubbermaid bin a turned it on it's side inside the crate. She still has almost the same amount of room floorwise and can stand up to turn around, but she is now unable to stand up on her hind legs and paw at the door in a frenzy. OK, so she hasn't bloodied herself again, but she still cries/barks/howls and messes. We've been leaving a tape recorder running when we leave to see what happens. Now this is only a 45 minute tape, so I don't know what happens beyond that point, but the crying usually starts within seconds of us closing the door to the house behind us. (I guess it's progress that we can actually get out of the house now before it starts. She used to cry as soon as we shut the door of the crate.) It starts as whimpering and builds to howling and barking. You can also hear alot of rustling and thumping around. It generally continues for about 30 minutes before all is quiet. As I said, the tape only goes 45 min, so we don't know if she starts up again after that. She is usually quiet when we come home and doesn't even make a fuss until after we let her out.

Willing to try almost anything, I bought the book 'The Dog Listener' and we are trying to apply some of those principals (like ignoring her briefly before we leave and after we come home), but we don't seem to be making any progress with the crate. She has just about outgrown the rubbermaid bin and we need to take that out of the crate, but I am afraid she is going to bloody herself again.

Does anyone have any suggestions on anything to help her get over the anxiety of being in the crate?

[LovinRuby]

Originally Posted by CondoPup

I don't know what to suggest other than making the crate as comfortable as possible, giving her safe chew-toys, positive reinforcement whenever she goes into the crate (I don't suppose she enters it willingly, or ever lays down there with the doors open while you're home?), etc.

There is always a toy or two inside to try to make it inviting. And, surprisingly enough, she DOES go in there frequently when we are home to take naps. Whenever we catch her in there we praise her and give her a treat. We try practicing "get in your box" with treats, and she will usually go in on her own. But, she senses when it is for real and won't willingly go in when we actually do need to shut her in there. She only does it when it is 'practice'.

[Cami]

I would try making sure that she is really good and tired from play before leaving her in the crate. Also leaving a stuffed frozen kong may help keep her occupied.

[LovinRuby]

Originally Posted by Cami

I would try making sure that she is really good and tired from play before leaving her in the crate. Also leaving a stuffed frozen kong may help keep her occupied.

It's hard to get her totally tired out when I have to spend time getting myself ready for work at the same time. About an hour before I have to leave in the morning I take her on a 20 min walk (as much as you can call it that...she's very easily distracted by things out in the world and often tends to just plop down to watch instead of walking) and when we come back in I get her to play fetch for another 10-15 min before starting our wind-down time in anticipation of my leaving. It has been suggested by the trainer at puppy class to keep things low-key the last 30 min before leaving and to ignore her the final 5-10. So, other than one final trip outside about ten min before my leaving, there isn't much activity the last 30 min before she goes into the crate.

I've tried the stuffed kong thing a few times, but she barely touched it. She just gets so worked up. She won't take treats once we shut the door on the crate. She will take them during "practice" time when we don't close the door but are rewarding her for going in, but as soon as it is closed that's it for eating. But, I actually haven't given her the kong in a few weeks, so maybe I will give it another try. At this point, it definitely can't hurt.

[LovinRuby]

Do you think the fact that she doesn't sleep in her crate at night is making things worse during the day when we do put her in it? She sleeps on the floor in the bedroom.

[Checkers]

Have you tried fake leaving? By that i mean get all ready for work (do everything 20 mins earlier), pick up your keys, put her in the crate, then sit down and have a coffee while you ignore her. All this while she is still in the crate. Ive seen this be suggested before on here, so it might work

Other than that you could try shutting the door during the day while you are home. Walking in and out of the room so she sees its not always when you are leaving that she gets shut in.

She sounds like such a good puppy for everything else though

Oh and alot of people let their dogs out of the crate at night and crate during the day, so its probably not that.

[StormKatz]

We had the same problem with Donte the first week.. He's would shreek at the top of his lungs non stop until he made himself so upset his tummy would get torn up.

First & fourmost weither or not your pup sleeps in her crate or with you is totally your decision, but in my experience crating them a night totally helps them adjust to crate training faster, & helps relieve seperation anxiety when left alone & crated. You want your pup to view her crate as her own private safe haven.

My suggestion to new owners is to began a feeding schedule & stick to it, this will help prevent accidents, & is almost a must for promp house breaking. My boys get a full meal in the morning between 7-8 am, a snack (usually a half cup of food) around 2-3pm, & another full meal between 10-11pm except on days we train when their snack is made up of training treats.

Began feeding your pup in her crate this will help her associate it with positive things.

Ignore her! As hard as it may be, when she whines & crys in her cage.. Do not respond, (even if it's to tell her "No" or to "Be quiet") Boxer pups want attention.. Any attention! Even if your only responding to her cries to tell her "No", she realizes that her cries will bring you to her, which is exactly what she wants. So even though your reprimanding her, your still giving her attention.

As far as the accidents I would almost guarentee it's stress related, stress & anxiety cause the bowels to loosen, & upset tummies, so odds are all her crying is is what's causing it... until she gets past her anxiety it will probably continue.

So the first priority is to make her comfortable in her cage, along with what I've listed above, you can also try a stuffed Kong which will keep her occupied for atleast a while after you leave, & should help relax her, you can also try leaving a TV or radio on while your gone getting her a stuffed animal to curl up with, etc.

We dealt with pretty much the exact same things you are with Donte.. but threw these methods in only a week & a half our little boy can be crated during the day & at night with no accidents & whining only for a potty break during the night.

Just remember be patient & consistent... she'll get the hang of it soon enough & you'll all be the happier for it.

Good Luck!!

[LovinRuby]

Originally Posted by Checkers

Have you tried fake leaving? By that i mean get all ready for work (do everything 20 mins earlier), pick up your keys, put her in the crate, then sit down and have a coffee while you ignore her. All this while she is still in the crate. Ive seen this be suggested before on here, so it might work

Other than that you could try shutting the door during the day while you are home. Walking in and out of the room so she sees its not always when you are leaving that she gets shut in.

We haven't exactly tried "fake leaving", as in doing everything 20 min earlier as you have suggested, but we have been trying to desensitize her to it, by shutting her in there several times a day when we aren't actually going anywhere. We don't walk in and out of the room though. We actually go open and close the door we always leave through. She can't see the door from the crate, but she definitely can hear it. We have been trying to build up the threshold at which she starts crying. (This was suggested to us by the trainer from puppy class.) So we leave (or pretend to leave but don't actually go outside--I'm wondering if she can still smell us when we don't really leave the house though) but we come back in before she starts to get worked up. We go back to where she can see us but don't let her out immediately. We wait just a few minutes (ignoring her) but we don't want to push it too long where she starts to cry because then we don't want to reward the crying by letting her out at that point. We have built it up to about 45 seconds. In the grand scheme of things though, that's nothing. We were told we need to get her to go at least 20 min without getting worked up to have this issue beat. Oiy. I will have to try the "fake leaving" thing though.

Originally Posted by Checkers

She sounds like such a good puppy for everything else though

We don't have anything to compare her too, but we think so. As long as she's not in her crate she does just great.

[LovinRuby]

Originally Posted by StormKatz

First & fourmost weither or not your pup sleeps in her crate or with you is totally your decision, but in my experience crating them a night totally helps them adjust to crate training faster, & helps relieve seperation anxiety when left alone & crated. You want your pup to view her crate as her own private safe haven.

We actually did crate her at night for the first three weeks. But, she cried and howled half the night, and messed in the crate several times a night EVERY night. In addition to being tired (literally) of listening to her cry and being sick of cleaning up messes in the middle of the night and every morning, we were feeling guilty about how much time she had to spend in there with us working and then making her sleep in there too. So we decided to try the bedroom thing. She has slept through the night every night since we took her out of the crate and she has not once made a mess in the bedroom. But, I hope our decision to keep her out at night didn't make the daytime crating situation that much worse.

Originally Posted by StormKatz

My suggestion to new owners is to began a feeding schedule & stick to it, this will help prevent accidents, & is almost a must for promp house breaking.

We actually do feed her on a schedule and have since we got her. It's not much fun on the weekends to be up to feed her at 6am, but we do. Luckily she will usually go back to sleep shortly after eating.

Originally Posted by StormKatz

Began feeding your pup in her crate this will help her associate it with positive things.

We started doing this about two weeks ago. The first time she stretched her neck out as far as she could, not wanting to step inside to reach the bowl, but now we put it all the way in and she goes in with no problems. She's getting to the point now where she will automatically go into the crate when we start getting her food ready. It's just odd. She doesn't TOTALLY hate the crate, but we just don't seem to be making any progress.

Originally Posted by StormKatz

Ignore her! As hard as it may be, when she whines & crys in her cage.. Do not respond, (even if it's to tell her "No" or to "Be quiet") Boxer pups want attention.. Any attention! Even if your only responding to her cries to tell her "No", she realizes that her cries will bring you to her, which is exactly what she wants. So even though your reprimanding her, your still giving her attention.

We are getting better at this all around, but we especially try to adhere to this rule when she is in her crate. That's why we are trying the whole "desensitizing" thing where we leave for seconds at a time but come back before she starts the whining and crying. We're just not making much progress. At this rate, it's going to be years before we've got her adjusted to the crate!

[QUOTE=StormKatz]As far as the accidents I would almost guarentee it's stress related, stress & anxiety cause the bowels to loosen, & upset tummies, so odds are all her crying is is what's causing it... until she gets past her anxiety it will probably continue.[\QUOTE]I totally agree. She is so good with the housetraining when she is not in the crate, so I know she CAN do it. I hate that she is so stressed out in there. It breaks my heart. I just wish we would start seeing some progress in everything we are trying. Nothing we're doing seems to be making much difference.

Originally Posted by StormKatz

So the first priority is to make her comfortable in her cage, along with what I've listed above, you can also try a stuffed Kong which will keep her occupied for atleast a while after you leave, & should help relax her, you can also try leaving a TV or radio on while your gone getting her a stuffed animal to curl up with, etc.

We were trying to make it a comfortable place for her with a nice soft piece of towel to lay on, but we got tired of soaking disgusting soiled messes twice daily. So now she only gets newspaper to lay on. (We've considered eliminating this too as all she does is mess, wad it up in the newspaper, and then push the paper into the corner. Maybe if she can't do that she will try harder to hold it? I dunno--at this point I just think she can't help herself when she get's worked up and lying in it would just make things worse.) I will definitely have to try the kong thing again. It's been awhile since I tried that. We do leave a radio on for her. I don't know about the stuffed animal. We have to was poop off whatever toys are in there with her everyday, so I just see a yucky, matted mess there. I did try putting in a t-shirt that I had slept in the night before in with her a few times, and that didn't seem to help either--right into the washer that had to go! Yuck. I just feel like we are running out of things to try at this point.

Originally Posted by StormKatz

We dealt with pretty much the exact same things you are with Donte.. but threw these methods in only a week & a half our little boy can be crated during the day & at night with no accidents & whining only for a potty break during the night.

Wow, only a week & a half? I'm so envious!

Originally Posted by StormKatz

Just remember be patient & consistent... she'll get the hang of it soon enough & you'll all be the happier for it.

I sure hope so!

[MeganMK]

Have you tried anything that would be comforting to her? A hot water bottle, a tape that has the sound of a heartbeat, or anything like that? When we were at the pet store today, we saw this stuffed animal that got warm, and had a heartbeat inside of it, that puppies could cuddle with.

Another thing to try...put a t shirt or blanket or something of yours that has been worn/used in the kennel with her. It will have your scent and be somewhat comforting.

I'm not sure what else you could do, sounds like you are doing everything right. When you left her in the kitchen while you went to work, did she cry just as much then? If so, she may have separation anxiety, which you may want to talk to your vet about.